Graffiti Wall: Minority Travelers' Forum

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Minority Travelers' Forum: 2008

Have any guidebooks been particularly helpful? Are there any places in Europe you'd discourage other minorities from visiting? How do you deal with stares or "special" treatment in areas that rarely see a minority or mixed-race couple? Please share your minority-related European travel tips and anecdotes here.

Please don't post questions here. Use our Travelers Helpline.

Black man in Rome
As someone who has spent some time in Italy as part of an interracial couple(my girlfriend is Scandinavian), I can tell you Italian men can be some of the most ignorant, racist people around.

Luckily, they're more bark than bite, and you won't suffer a physical altercation with them as you might be prone to do in Eastern Europe.

Suffice it to say, Italian men, if they see you with a white woman (especially one who is attractive), will stare, glare, mumble, spit, and even curse in your direction.

I've also seen plenty of swastikas and anti-immigrant graffiti throughout the big Italian cities including Rome.
Jerome
Los Angeles, CA USA Thu 01/01/2009

Switzerland,whats your opinion?
Thank you all for the information.You have comfirmed my opinion that France should be no problem for a visiting person of color.Do you think Switzerland(Zurich) is a place that I would encounter potential problems?If you think a Black American could experience racism in that country,do you think it will come in the form of in your face blatant racism such as comments,gestures and refusal of services or more likely to be just glaring stares and social rejection? Have any of you spent time in Switzerland?

Thank you so much
Robert
Ohio USA Sun 12/21/2008

Movin' to Europe
Don't worry. There is racism and we are way more advanced in the way we handle race here than in Europe but there are also tons more brown folks here. With all of the pro-Obama sentiment, you'll probably be celeb-like - an African American man, what? They do stare a lot though. My boyfriend and I went to Europe this summer - they mostly stared at me not him really. I say don't let fear stop you but, don't give up your US citizenship either.
Sham
San Francisco, CA USA Fri 12/19/2008

Belgium,Switzerland and France
Hi everyone

I would like to spend the spring, summer and fall in Europe and the countries up for consideration are France,Belgium and Switzerland.Never been to any of them and I'm hoping you all could help to explain the problems I might run into(being that I'm African American) especially in Switzerland and Belgium? I think France might be ok but not sure.Would you recommend certain cities in Belgium and Switzerland please?BTW,if all goes well I'm looking at a possible long term move.Which of those three countries could you live in and why?

Thank you very much
Robert
Ohio USA Thu 12/18/2008

France
Hi Robert I would choose france for most of the stay and travel to the other 2 for short visits when u need to clear your head. Paris is cool to hangout in and i don't even speak French. You can contact, if u want more info, about living in Europe. If my e-mail address show. post a note and i'll post it direct. i use Macbook, but not the e-mail. NYC
nyc <email>
nyc, nyc USA Thu 12/18/2008

Reply to BA
Ba, once u live in Europe u will see its mainly not brown skin people. Are u from America.

U can be respectful , polite, kind, but there are always people looking to let u know they don't like brown or American people.

U being a male, they would think twice about confronting u, unless they are in a group.

I've encounter things i never encountered in America, some from brown people, most pink.

I observe how people with brown skin are related to and people from other countries. One of the countries u visited, i live in. U will be shocked to know the truth behind the myth. Come back on Dec 5th and u might cry, when u see how they celebrate their christmas for kids. Its a shame and they see nothing wrong with it.

As a tourist u won't encounter the hard anti-brown hue or anti-American, unless u live here or travel out side the tourist areas. You have to watch out for both, but mainly the pink people, from my personal experience. U get your odd brown person trying make it hard for u. In general u will enjoy your time. Just make sure u keep the # of the American Embassy, because its the officials u have to be concern about, too. They say there is no passport checks, get on the eurobus. U will find the truth out about the open borders in Europe. I take the grey hound bus and never seen a cop or trooper board the bus and check id.

The euros do stare. I pretend to take their picture if they stare to long or hard, that gets them to stop. U just have to let them know u are interesting in them, by ignoring them.
nyc
nyc, nyc USA Thu 12/18/2008

Nothing to fear in Spain!!!!
Greetings from Texas: I went to Spain for 15 days last month (October is perfect to travel there), using Rick Steves' Spain 2008 guidebook. Flew into Madrid, flew out of Barcelons, and my whole experience was awesome!! Before I went, I did peruse this forum, so I read previous entries about other minorities' negative report on how they were treated. Fortunately, I never really ran into any of that. My first trip to Europe was Paris/London in '05, then Italy in '06. As a Black man traveling alone, I never was made to feel uncomfortable because of my skin color. Being prepared and studied up with the local culture and stock phrases for the nation I visited helped out alot in that regard. To my pleasant surprise, the Spaniards in my opinion surpassed even the Italians in their warmth and hospitality (granted, I never went south of Rome, but I digress). DO see Sevilla!! I visited many cities on my Spainish journey, but Sevilla was by far the most welcoming of all. John is right: my brothers and sisters, we need to travel more. Only we as Black people can be our own best ambassadors to the world. When Europeans found out I'm American, especially in the lead-up to The Day, they were eager to hear a fresh perspective on the American experience. I'd love to see Central/Eastern Europe this time in '09. As my Muslim friends say, Inshallah.....
Alfran <email>
Houston, TX USA Tue 12/02/2008

Europe? Don't worry about whites, worry about black people
Hi all

Just got back from a trip to Europe. My travels included the Netherlands (Amsterdam), Belgium (Brussles), France (Paris and the outskirts of Versailles), England (London) and Portugal (Lisbon).

First, I must say, I did travel with my caucasian partner and I am male, of African origin(I look clearly African would not be mistaken for anything else and not light skinned for those concerned about shade).

Before travelling I definitely had my preconceptions as to how I would be received and treated by the locals. I tossed and tossed over many different countries to visit trying to pick the most forward looking and 'progressive' ones. However, at the end of the day decided to just go with it.

Overall I was pleasantly surprised. As a black and white couple, particularly a black male and white female you'd expect for any latent racism to be overtly thrown in your direction and I can honestly say I did not experience one little bit of racism not one! Yes, people may have held prejudiced views, but in my experience they either were not willing to show it, or god protected me and the 'bad ones' didn't cross my path. I believe strongly in god and prayed to him before and throughout my trip, confident that the lord has blessed me with all the very helpful and entertaining people we met. I've never been so welcomed by any community not even here where I live in Australia. Yes, that's right, you'd say Australia is more racist if you compared my experience.

In no way do I mean to trivialise or discount someones elses negative experiences. I acknowledge discrimination does exist and does so everywhere in this world. But in my experience, going with god, and being polite and very respectful to the local traditions and ways of doing things paid dividends for me.

My advice don't go being rude. Remember the simple things, follow the local etiquette and be polite. Just because you do things differently at home doesn't mean you can go to France and shout on people. Show some respect and most reasonable human beings will give it back (of course you can't change some).

France was great, my partner and I were treated like royalty everywhere we went. Belgium, I loved the people, polite, honest and respectful, what else do you need?

Portugal was great food and sunshine. London, well that's always great! And Amsterdam you can't go wrong.

Next time will be Italy and Switzerland.

I am weary about Eastern Europe.

Anyways over and out!

Happy and travels and please be polite! Not rude! like I saw so many tourists (including American's being)..
BA
AUS Tue 11/25/2008

UK,Italy,Sweden
Thank you Lisa,Britt & BA for all your advise.I've heard nothing but good opinions from people who have lived or visited Australia.I actually met a few Aussies who impress me so much that I do some day want to visit that country.They seem like the salt of the earth kind of folk.You know the type,really easy going sort of people.

If living in Europe had not been a long time dream of mine I might consider Australia.My heart is set on Europe and based on what I've learned thus far I'm leaning toward the UK,Italy and Sweden.I hear Sweden is one of the most progressive nations in the EU.Enfact Sweden was the first big western country to come out against Apartied South Africa.

SWeden was far ahead of America and the UK in terms of standing up for justice in this particular case.I appreciate all your advise and if there is anything you can suggest please do so.BTW,I must say our recent election does give me hope for America's social progress.
James
USA Tue 11/11/2008

Funny, in 1990, I had no trouble walking the streets of Budapest(Magyar Republic), Yugoslavia(then one country consisting of Bosnia-Hercegovina, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia & Slovenia) and I talk to my native-born Bulgarian friend every two weeks--I met him in the then East Berlin.

I am a 'black' man and I prefer Central(nyet voctok Europa) since it is 'off the beaten track'.

You need to stop steretyping
James <email>
Cincinnati, OH USA Mon 11/03/2008

EASTERN EUROPE
i alert all the color people abouT FIRST OF ALL SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO,NEVER EVER THINK AS A COLOR PEOPLE TO GO THERE. I AM AN AFRICAN MALE IN THE EARLY THIRTIES MYSELF AND I HAD A FRIEND FROM BULLGARIA. WE ATTEMPTED TO PASS THE BORDER FROM HUNGARIA THE GUY AT THE BORDER ALMOST SHOT US,ONE THING ABOUT SERBIAN MEN AND WOMEN THEY ARE VERY TALL AND BIG.I THOUGHT WE AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN ARE TALL BUT WHEN I WAS THERE I FELT SHORT AND I AM ABOUT 6'3".SLOVAKIA WAS BAD-A LOT OF SKIN HEADS THERE,BULGARIA AND ROMANIA BAD BUT BETTER.EASTREN EUROPEANS ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM WESTERNS-THEY DON'T BACK OFF EASY.I WAS AT THE COFFEE SHOP IN SOFIA, BULGARIA AND I WAS LOOKING AT THIS GIRL AND SHE LOOKED BACK TO ME,I ALMOST GOT KILLED 2 MIN LATER I HAD TO RUN. ALBANIA WAS ANOTHER BAD EXPERIENCE-A LOT OF GANGS THERE AND PEOPLE ARE VERY PROTECTING OF THEIR WOMEN. A LOT OF GANGS THERE TOO. i WAS IN PARIS,LONDON,GERMANY AND WAS MUCH BETTER,I TOLD MYSELF NEVER EVER EASTERN EUROPE AGAIN
STRIKER <email>
NEW YORK, NY USA Sat 11/01/2008

Europe by Rail Tourist Report
We are a mixed-race couple in our 40's. I am Mexican Asian and my husband is Caucasian. We had both been to Europe decades ago. The timing of this trip may have been why many Europeans seemed sour. Each country was or was about to be told they would have to fork over billions of taxpayer euros to save themselves from the American led debacle. We traveled to Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, France. Between the two of us, we speak a little French, German and Spanish. I am curious enough to strike up a conversation and I was looking forward to having a few European beers and getting to know our neighbors. In the beginning, I made an energetic effort to do this but by mid-trip I was out of steam. The minute we spoke English to each other, the atmosphere changed and became very uncomfortable. This wasn't at every establishment and we did have a few wonderful conversations but on the whole, we were the wet blankets of the party. As others have noted, you most definitely will get stared at or more often glared at and hear an occasional rude comment. I found this most often in Germany. Bruges is a fantastic place to sightsee but don't expect service. They didn't like us and they're not shy about it. We did run across very friendly and helpful people throughout. The sights are magnificent. People are the same everywhere, I just needed to be reminded up close. My advice is if you go and you look a little different, bring your thick skin and an ipod, the ipod provides a great comfort blanket when you need to zone out. If you're thin skinned, travel with a group, you'll be less of an easy target.
Karen
Bishop, CA USA Mon 10/27/2008

For James
James,

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I have felt that same frustration.

I've only been to Europe once but it seems to me that Europeans who hate tend to save their hatred for the people of color that come from their former colonies. They might be more accepting of Americans. But I wouldn't go to Europe with a romanticized view of the people. They are just people.

If your heart isn't set on Europe, I would suggest that you investigate Canada. It is more European in attitude but still very similar to the U.S. There is some history for us there, remember that the underground railroad terminated in Canada. You will find historically black churches is places like Windsor and Toronto. I find Canada different enough to feel more comfortable but similar enough to feel like home. Just a thought.
Lisa <email>
Landover, MD USA Wed 10/22/2008

Racism in Europe
I lived in England and Spain for several years and I must say that England is the most racially tolerant country I have experienced. However, in many ways racism is more open in Europe than America. I saw African soccer players in Spain and Germany have banannas tossed at them and be subjected to some of the most vile racial slurs I've ever heard. You would never get away with that here in the USA.
Christian <email>
Wilmington, NC USA Thu 10/09/2008

A place to consider
James:

I would have to agree with BA/AUS.

Australia probably would be a good fit for you. Like Nicole was saying though, anywhere in the world that you go, your skin color is going to stay the same, and as a result of that, there will always be the possibility of experiencing some sort of racism, or rude behavior.

With that said, Australia is a good place to go. I went there 2 years ago, and was treated very well. I was in Sydney, Melbourne, and Cairns, and I was also in small little towns like Wagga Wagga, which is about 5 hours from Sydney, and I was treated just fine. No stares, no rude comments, nothing. Australia is very laid back, and it just has a different feel than Europe and the US.

But if living in Australia is an option for you, I would definitely take a lot of time to consider that Australia is pretty much isolated from the rest of the world, and I assume that the majority of your friends, family, and connections are in the States. And even though you want to live outside of the US, I don't think you want to be completely cut off from the US, and in Australia, it feels like you're in a whole different world. Australia is 18 hours ahead of the west coast (which is where I'm from) so it's hard to cordinate phone calls home, and it's a 15-16 hour plane ride home, and thats if you live on the west coast, if not then tack on a few more hours to that.

But its a very nice, modern country, and that's what I liked about it. Europe feels too old and stuck in the dark ages era, as far as architecture, and design. Every time I'm in europe I feel like I've stepped back into the medieval times. I like a more modern, cosmopolitan, chic feel, and Australia has that, and is very progressive.

I find Europeans to be rude and stuck up, and the British people especially tend to be very short with people, and unfriendly. Europeans just seem to have a cold and stoic sort of mentality. Australians are very warm and very friendly, and seem to be more open, and like I said, it's a more modern place than Europe. It's younger than any Europeans country, and doesn't feel so historic, but maybe you're into the old, historic feel.

But if you're looking for progressive, then I would say Australia as a whole is a better fit than probably most Europeans countries. And it would be easier for an ex-pat to be able to make friends, and social connections because the Australians seem to be more welcoming.
Britt
Seattle, Wa USA Tue 09/23/2008

James

In response to your post I really don't think you'll find a better country to live in than Australia. No other country is as welcoming (in my experience) of Black Americans and the associated hip hop culture like Australia.

If you haven't been to Australia you are missing out. In Australia, culture is a melting pot. Australians identify from many backgrounds. We have the first Australians (aborigines), Australian born and then people who come from all the lands abound that make Australia home.

Get yourself over here. Lots of sunshine, beautiful beaches, great people, Sydney and its stunning harbour. Progressive and rational people, looking for change and lots of Obama supporters.

They'll love you trust me, get yourself over to Sydney or Melbourne. Then make your mind up for yourself.
BA
AUS Thu 09/18/2008

Switzerland
Hi all - I'm a black female moving to the area outside of Zurich (Horgen) with my work for a year. I've heard mixed things, not all rosy, but mainly from older sources or the internet. Has anyone been or lived there that can give me your observations? Thank you!
Marie
NY, USA Wed 09/17/2008

James NY, here's some advice
Hi James

Your post is interesting, and as a black woman who has lived overseas, I feel I should offer up my pieces of wisdom for you. But first I must express to you, that if you feel that leaving the States will put you in the midst of all these progressive people who don't have there own set of ideas about you and your place in the world, then think again. Living overseas presents it's own set of issues including those of race. Not saying that they can't be handled but they are present, and you will have to deal with "non-progressive" think of some Europeans.

That being said, I have found my stays in Europe absolutely wonderful. I have had to deal with some bits of racism, but I come from the idea that, it takes all kinds to make the world go around, and that theses types of issues will follow me throughout my life, because no matter where I live my skin color with always be the same.

I lived in Rome for nearly six months, and most recently lived in London for a year and a half (not as a student either). I love my European adventures. But living in Europe requires you to learn how to live differently than what you are accustomed to, and if you are ready to do that then you have taken the first major step. However, before you make such a more, I would advise you to travel to a couple of the countries you are thinking about living in, and see how they fit you. The London is great for some, but others find Paris more fascinating, or better yet Geneva. Every place has it's own set of pluses and minuses…so take the time to investigate, before you make such a big move. If you don't mind a little cold, rain, or snow in some cases, then make a trip in Jan or Feb., when prices are cheap (as opposed to in the summer). Not being able to speak the language is not always an issue because most people in Europe can speak English, but if you do decide to move to a non-english speaking country, do take the time to learn the language, it will only benefit you more and help enrich your experience. Good luck to you!
Nicole
Pasadena, CA USA Sun 09/14/2008

Nicole,Pasadena

Hi Nicole

Thank you for responding and let me say the advice offered was very sound.I'm past the stage of wondering if I could fit into a different culture.Have all ready lived for a year out side the states(Brazil) and to be honest my time there worked to confirm my belief that my desire to live abroad is not only real but a good fit for me.

My connection to America has more to do with the family ties I share with those closest to me than anything else.I don't believe the United States is a very moral country.Enfact the USA in my opinion for the last eight years (and in prior years) has been nothing short of a fraud.

I know I'm not the only person who is saying they can't tolerate the idea of the republicans running this country for another 8 years, and to be honest my interest in living abroad goes much deeper than the social conditions here.I have allways wanted to experience living in Europe but timing has been a issue.

I'm one of those people that believe living out side the American culture would be an amazing experience.You mentioned your 18 months in the UK.How much of that time did you spend out side of London?Did you venture into other areas of Great Britain,and were you equally impressed by what you saw in those towns/cities?What most do you miss about the UK and how would you compare the way Brits respected you as a person of color compared to your experience living here in the States?

Having lived in California my self years ago, I'm well aware that its one of, if not the most progressive regions in America.If America as a nation(my opinion) ranks a "5" in terms of being progressive,how would you rank the UK based on your time there?What area of London did you live,and did you spend any time in Brixton?

Thank you for your great advice.

P.S. Its my opinion that life is very short and to be direct, I just don't want to waste time living in America when it doesn't seem to be progressing as quickly as it should in terms of our politics or even when it come to social evolution.
James
NJ USA Sun 09/14/2008

Response to James
James NY,

Wow…politics and social evolution…this is a conversation for the ages, but since this is a site about travel, I will stick to your questions, and leave my political opinions out of this. My reasons for wanting and like yourself, desiring to leave the US were more of a personal evolution. I had always longed to live someplace else, the states, especially California were hitting that last nerve. I had lived in the so. Cal region all my entire life and felt that there was more to life than, celebrities, big cars, and acquiring more debt. I understand when you say that your connection to the states is family related, and even they can drive you to want to leave…(jokes aside). If you have passed the point of "wondering if you can fit", then go for it!!!

You're right…living outside the US is a wonderful and enriching experience, and I can say personally that I am better for it. It taught me that I could live outside my comfort zone, it has shown me what should be valued, and I have met people that I would have never met, especially if I would stayed in California isolated in my car in stuck in traffic!!!!!

My experience in Britain was delicious, at times difficult and fascinating. Yes, I have traveled outside of London, where it is another world to me. Done West England for a few weeks, Bristol, Bath, and north to Manchester, and couple of small stops in between; some alone and some with friends, so I can compare traveling alone as well as traveling with others.

I've also spent time on the continent, France, Belgium, Switzerland, and Italy as I mentioned before. Each country has it quirks and their own particular beauty, which you can define for yourself.

As far as living in London is concerned, (which is now more home than CA), it is tricky. Visiting is one thing, living there is another. I had visited London three times before I made my move. The one thing I will say in this open blog is, that being black in America is REALLY different than being black in London. London is a very cosmopolitan city, with people from all over the world stuffed in an 11 mile radius, not only do you have other Europeans, trying to assimilate to life in London, but there are Africans, Arabs (Indian as they are referred to there), and a whole host of others trying to do the same. Among Blacks you will find, that every culture stays tightly entrenched amongst themselves, be they Jamaican, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Ethiopian, and so on. This was a surprise to me, and something I really didn't see until I had moved. I am treading lightly here for a reason, but will I will say is this. Don't expect to be greeted on the street with open arms, most black people are a bit cautious, and many times they won't even speak to you. It not until you open your mouth and they here that American accent do people warm up, and do us that to your advantage, especially when you go to Brixton!!! I spent a great deal of time there, as well as other areas of south London. However I lived in east London, which was a trip in and of itself. Don't get caught up in wanting to live in Brixton. Even though it is cool there are a whole host of areas that are interesting and that have a good mix of people. I used to think that Britain was progressive as far as how they view the world, but my opinion changed once I spent time there. You know what progressive means to you and what you are applying it to. So that is an answer that you have to find for yourself.

I know this response may sound a bit negative, and I don't mean to be, but I would be doing you an injustice if I weren't to tell you the truth as I see it. Are there things about living in Europe that offer a bit more to life than the states…to me that answer is yes! But I am looking at the how it enriches me. How excited I get when I can walk into a museum FOR FREE and look at a Michael Angelo or a da Vinci, I get excited when I can immerse myself in another culture after and hour plane ride (which was dirt cheap), how wonderful it is to meet someone from war torn Bosnia, or the Sudan and here about their story of survival and see that persistence and sometimes sheer luck can change a persons life. The food, the art, being able to interact in ways that I never could in the states, that's what makes living in Europe great for me. Being able to show myself and the world that I can do anything I want, go anywhere in the world and live, despite what the world may think of me as a woman or my skin color. Well, is that is my own personal way of seeing and being progressive.

Sorry this is a bit long…I get excited talking about travel
Nicole
Pasadena, CA USA Sun 09/14/2008

Hello Everyone

I need some advice.Of late, living in the states has left me feeling that there has to be a better country to call home.

Being a African American in the United States in 2008 is kinda like the relationship between a husband and his mother-inlaw.Connected, but not by choice or appreciated like a family member should be.

I even see that lack of respect in the way senator Obama has been demonized by the right wing nut cases.If the republicans win this election that to me will be the last straw.I want to find a country that is more progressive.

So what I'm thinking of doing is following my long time dream of living in Europe.My question to you forum members is which countries would you say are a great place in Europe to live?

I've heard good things about the UK,and the Netherlands.I don't speak any foreign language other than abit of spanish.I have a ITT career so getting a visa shouldn't be a issue.Any advice you could offer on a progressive country in Europe is most welcomed.

Thank you
James
NJ USA Fri 09/12/2008

see the world
I feel compelled to post once again after visiting this site in the past. I am a 30 something black male born and raised in Orange County California and my wife is white, having grown up in Hong Kong, Australia and Brazil. The first time I left the country with my wife I was very apprehensive. It was an enagagement trip in which I would be surprising my then girlfriend with a ring while in Rome. I did all the usual research as I too became nervous at the prospect of encountering a wall of racism in Italy. That first trip we spent 12 fantastic days travelling throughout Naples, the Amalfi coast and Rome. I felt like a fool for harboring so much fear. Recently we just returned from out third trip to Italy this last fall having travelled through Venice, Florence (Tuscany) and my home away from home, Rome. Once again it was as if I "belonged" among the many non blacks who live and travel through Italy. The one thing I must implore is that black people "need" to get out and see the world. Too many of us think that there is nothing outside of our own backyard. Either the language barrier, flying or the immersion of a new culture has many of us so afraid to leave that we have become isolated and the rest of the world doesn't know who we are or what to think of us except for what is seen on TV. We cannot allow ourselves to become so stagnant that creating a dream to travel the world becomes nothing more than a work place day dream. Make it a reality and do it often. There is no excuse not to. If you have little money; save. If you fear a new language, don't worry because you can get by speaking only English but out of respect you should at least learn a few phrases as it goes a long way in facilitating relationship bonds with the local citizens. There is nothing more gratifying for me than to be on a plane bound for Europe and glowing with anticipation for what adventure awaits for me.

I would like to challenge all minorities to go out and travel but blacks especially. Get out and see the world. Be seen and heard. There are so many beautiful cultures and people out there that want to learn us. Xenophobia is a problem in a lot of countries but unless they are exposed to us it will be harder for people to accept tolerance. As for Spain, we tend to forget that under Franco's rule, Spaniards were so oppressed that their voices were silenced, their individuality stripped and the rest of the world (people and cultures) became nonexistent. It's only been three plus decades since the fall Franco but a New Spain has emerged. A lot of people are exercising freedoms they never had or in large part restored. Spain is extremely nationalistic but they arent racist. They are growing up all over again and it takes time to adjust to a world that was taken from them for so long.

Let's all try to experience what is rightfully ours, this gift called earth and explore her every corner and immerse ourselves in her beautiful cultures.
john <email>
Denver, Colora USA Wed 08/27/2008

Last Year's visit to Europe
It was a very quiet July on here, so here goes! I am an African-American woman who visited the Netherlands, Paris, Germany, and Belgium last year. I really had no problems at all, overall. In fact, I loved it so much, I am going back to The Netherlands this coming September.

Yes, the stares are sometimes there, especially at a lot of touristy-areas. I don't want to make an overall generalization, but I would see the least amount of people of color at the museums, tourist spots, and off-the-beaten-path type places. Shopping, no matter where, we seemed to represent quite well.

In Paris, I traveled with a Dutch tour group and was oblivious to being "profiled" as we approached a building where we were going to (privately) view the Eiffel Tower from it's observation deck. I guess the guards (building personnel), as I found out later, thought I had "accidently" wandered into this group of white people and they met me near the entrance with unwelcoming and stern faces, motioning me to get away from the group. The Dutch tour guide came rushing to my defense, speaking to them in French. When I turned to my Dutch friend and spoke to him in English (about a beautiful view I'd spotted, purposely ignoring the incident), their faces turned red and they were very apologetic as I went through the turnstile. I just ignored them.

It's really no different than here in America. Sometimes people's expectations of who you are, where you belong, and what you're all about is based on the color of your skin...it takes special people to take a moment to look outside of what's considered the "norm," and see that this great big world belongs to everyone. This same thing occured, similarily, in a Paris museum (the one with the Unicorn tapestries). The guard followed me throughout the gift store, unabashedly, as I shopped. When I paid for my items, he was staring closely enough as I brought out my Bank of America debit card. The cashier acknoweleged that I was American. His demeanor completely changed and he rolled out the red carpet for me in his actions, with smiles and friendly gestures, as we were leaving. But it was too late, he'd already shown his true colors. Oh, well. I just hope the other patrons weren't robbing them blind.

Amsterdam...so cool. No incidents at all. I never felt like I wasn't welcomed anywhere (even if I was completely ignored, which was just perfect). Visiting the Rijksmuseum? wonderful! Refreshing!
KR <email>
AR USA Sat 08/02/2008

ESPANA!
Black people of America; you must get yourself to Europe. I read comments from people about wanting to know how much armour they will need to face Europe. You will need some but FAR less than you would in the United States. Three things to be aware of. 1. Dress well. This is not b.c dressing casually = looking poor but b.c it guarantees much better service. Especially in big cities like Paris, London, Madrid, Lisbon. I used to be upset about having to "compromise" and dress up just so I can be treated decently but it is a small sacrifice to avoid people's ignorance. By the way, my Paris-born White European friends do exactly the same thing. They too will get better service if they look nice. So it is not even a racial issue.

2. Learn to distinguish between RACISM and RARISM. You may get a ton of looks. NOT because people are racist but because you are such a rare sight where they are. Or b/c you don't look like the other people who share your skin color (ie African Americans vs. Africans in Europe). I was in Salamanca Spain studying abroad and I almost cut my trip short b.c I could not deal with all the stares. I had never felt so worthless and disrespected. Finally I went to church and prayed to God to give me the strength to deal with these racist ignorant Spaniards. I came out and this woman behind me at a candy shop says, "Oh, I saw you at the bakery yesterday. You are so tall and beautiful. You know, we never see people who look like you so we all notice you." I couldn't believe it. This old woman had come up to say what the whole town was thinking. After that, I changed my outlook. In my mind I became Salamanca's celebrity and I relished the attention. But it was hilarious how all the stares just a few hours before had made me want to burn off my skin, and with one comment, And as an anecdote, I wound up dating the head of the University's Law Club who is one of the most respected students so we basked in each other's celebrity :). So, realise that yes, there is certainly racism, but there is also a lot of 'Wow, I don't think I've ever seen a Black person in real life.'

3. Notice who are the minorities of your society. When you are Black in the US, you are so accustomed to thinking that you and perhaps Hispanics are the most persecuted in your society. Get to Europe and all of a sudden, you will realise that people of ALL colors are the minorities. Filipinos are looked down upon. Poles and Romanians are looked down upon. Gypsies are looked down upon. Moroccans are looked down upon. Ignorance and intolerance can be leveled at any one. Even White people. Realising that other people are also mistreated will actually make you feel less pessimistic about your race. And hopefully more empathetic.

I can't recall specific racist incidents. They occurred but none that would make me swear off a place altogether. I do have to give Barcelona a special shout out for being the place that most made me feel like I belonged and was welcomed. Such a happy, carefree locale.

But please travel and let me know how my tips helped you!
Well-traveled
New York, NY USA Sat 08/02/2008

To Katie:

There is a Graffiti wall section entitled "Accessible Europe" which deals with your concerns. It would be more appropriate to put your post there.
Art
UK Thu 06/26/2008

Disability and Europe Travel
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned their experience as a disabled person traveling in Europe. We have to deal with not only accessibility issues but also "attitude" issues. I am interested in what other disabled people have to say about the way they were treated in Europe. Attitudes about the disabled need to improve everywhere, but some places are more backwards/progressive than others. For instance, in Italy I experienced nonstop staring and sneering, taxi drivers who refused to take me, shop owners who spied on me as I shopped, and a some people who wouldn't even talk to me even though I speak Italian. My experience in Ireland and the UK was much, much better. Very accessible, open-minded, willing to talk to me and help me out, and so on. I've heard people say that the further south and east you go in Europe, the attitudes about the disabled are still very medieval. It gets better the further north you go. I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
Katie
KY USA Tue 06/24/2008

To the questions about Barcelona
I've been all over Spain. I'm an African American Female. And I absolutely love Spain I loved it so much I seriously considered moving there. I was just in Barcelona this past summer and had one of the best times in my life. I found the lifestyle to be very laid back. I found the people to be very warm and friendly towards me. However this isn't to say everyone black person's experience will be like mine or that I won't one day have a negative experience. But I think all experiences good or bad only broaden your horizons.
Meg <email>
NYC, NY USA Mon 06/16/2008

Paris, London
I lived for a little over 6 months in Paris, and about 4 months in London.

I am multi-racial (mixed Asian and Caucasian) and had very mixed experiences. Just to preface, I feel that since I was living there, with daily interactions with people, and not just traveling for a week or two I probably experienced more than someone who is just going on a group tour.

Of the two cities, I found London closest to NYC. Mixed, loud, lots of multi-racial people. I had one incident, where my white friends got into a bar and the bouncer refused to let me in and gave me a hard time. One person I met said that Americans were all blond-haired and blue-eyed and fair, even though I told him I was American and I am none of those things.

Just as a general frame, there are some people in Europe whose vision of America is a country full of tall corn-fed blue-eyed blondes, and nationality and ethnicity are conflated. So for example, what you look like (Asian) means they assume that is where you come from, even if you've lived in suburban Pennsylvania your whole life. It's surprising and shocking at times but that's one thing to expect.

Paris, sadly many incidents more than London. Host families repeatedly getting into heated discussions that Africans, immigrants are ruining their country. Lots of racist talk; Asians are savages, but "I'm not like them." (Yeah, right.) Backhanded comments about the Philippines, Muslims. People talking down to me, a cashier at H&M saying in my face in French that she was surprised that a poor hick like me could even afford all the clothes I was buying (she assumed I was a Filipino immigrant who couldn't understand French); called "a maid" by one person and ordered to pick up some cigarettes someone had dropped. Friends who were Asian were repeatedly referred to as Chinese no matter their background, and being teased by adults and children. African-American friend described Italy as "the worst" in terms of racist comments/behavior, host family made disparaging comments about Africans to her, and in one instance host parent got physical with her, said if she called the police, who do you think they would believe? Filipino woman working as maid telling me that her employers don't treat her well, and that the French weren't nice to her. Asian classmate getting stared at in Russia.

Many immigrants of non-Caucasian background from francophone Africa, China, Iraq etc. I found were extremely helpful, kind to and friendly with me. They often inquired how I was doing and seemed particularly interested and concerned in how the French were treating me. One man from Iraq told me that "Les francais sont un peu raciste."

Overall, Europe is beautiful; by all means go! But be aware that the political correctness that we so take for granted in the US doesn't really exist in Europe. There are many wonderful open minded people as well who couldn't give a damn about where you came from and will only shrug and say "cool", but the frequency of those willing to vocalize their unsavory beliefs about race to one's face is higher than I have experienced in the US. Reaction wise, it hurts the most the first time you experience it, but usually, literally walking away from the incident will give you time to cool off and/or avoid a physical altercation.
USA Fri 06/06/2008

Barcelona
I've traveled within the western Europe extensively, from as little as a week and sometimes as long as 2-3 months at a time, for business and pleasure. Two countries which are mentioned by business people and travelers, who are not white, more frequently for overt racism are UK (outside London) and Spain. My own experience is/was similar, long before I heard of these comments, and this traveled spanned over the last 30 years. Having said that, I also believe that being an American provides us better tools to spot and handle this bigotry. Unfortunately, most of the people feel that, in these countries, its not an embarrassing or shameful act condemned by majority, and that's where lies the problem.

I hope it will not stop you from traveling and seeing the world, because of the few ignorants.
Johny
Charleston, SC USA Sun 06/01/2008

Barcelona
Hi All,

I have been glancing through this forum trying to gauge the treatment of AAs in Barcelona. I am a 21 year old male going to Barca for about a month to study international business. From what I have read, many have said that it is a tolerant place but more have said that it was racist. I watch soccer alot and am familiar with the treatment of african players but through it all I still wanted to go.

I just wanted to get some feedback of some recent travelers to see some different perspectives on what to expect and how to make the trip enjoyable.
Ryan <email>
FL USA Sat 05/31/2008

Japanese-American Male in Europe
I am a Japanese-American guy who's been living in Europe for the last 8 years.

There are different ways to look at Europe.

In general, with the exception of the United Kingdom, French, German, and many Eastern European women have been very open-minded in terms of dating and having relationships with me.

I believe in terms of dating, Europe is a superior place for East Asian males who were raised in the United States or Canada.

Compared to American women, European women just seem amazingly more open-minded, interested in East Asian culture, and attracted to East Asian men.

On the other hand, I would say economic opportunities are far more limited for non-indigenous groups here in Europe than in the United States or Canada.

As for general treatment on a day to day basis, I'd say it's about the same. You get your share of intolerant racists who taunt or yell (ESPECIALLY when they see you holding hands with a local European woman).
Daigo
Paris, IDF France Thu 05/22/2008

Italy
I traveled to Italy (mainly Rome, Venice, Bologna, and Florence) and it was absolutely a fabulous experience. The Italians were very warm and friendly, and at no time did I ever feel mistreated or experienced any hint of racism. The Italian men were especially receptive to me and my friends, and surprisingly more attentive and generous to me (part African-American) than my white companions. I would definitely go back again. The country is beautiful, the cites are amazing and the people very friendly. Even if you do not speak Italian (although I would suggest learning several common phrases as a courtesy) most Europeans speak several languages fluently, which includes English, French and Spanish, so communication should not be an issue.
World Traveler
Phoenix, AZ USA Sat 05/10/2008

Portugal
Rick, your Portugal guide book made my 13 days in Europe's bargin country fantastic. The walks in Lisbon, the quiet beach in Salema, tasting Port wine in Porto, and day trips to Coimbra and Evora; your hotel recommendation and itinerary suggestions were for me, on point!! I will not go to Europe without one of your guidebooks.

I am African American Male and had no problems in Portugal; well only one -- i didn't get over my addiction to sardines, seafood and vinho verde; "Happy Travels" and "You don't know there until you go there"--Zora Neal Hurston. Planning a 16 day trip to Scandinavia this summer, any advice that I won't find in Rick Steves book?
Shermanator <email>
Somewhere on the road, USA Thu 04/24/2008

Racism Abroad - Country by Country Reports
A travel website called Acarnos.com has an entire section devoted to racism against travelers. It lists a number of websites where you can read country reports about the kind of welcome minorities can expect, as well as lots of other links:

http://www.acarnos.com/index_travel_guide/racism_abroad.htm

I hope this helps.
Rod
La Jolla, CA USA Wed 04/23/2008

Customs Agents
Hi, this forum has been quite helpful to me when I did my first European trip last year, so I wanted to leave a note about my experience with Customs agents. I don't know if it was because I was black or American (or both) but I found the customs agents in London and Stockholm to be quite rude. The Stockholm airport was the worst. I was grilled and grilled and grilled until finally I wised up and said that I was on my way to meet my boyfriend's family. The agent asked for his name. I said his first name. "Well, that doesn't sound Swedish." So then I said his last name. My boyfriend has a stereotypically Swedish last name. The agent then says, "That sounds Swedish. You can go through." Sigh.

I've since learned that mentioning that I'm traveling with my Swedish boyfriend is the best way to expedite the questioning, whether it's the UK or Sweden.

I'm not sure why this should be the case. Does he give me some sort of odd European "street cred"? It makes me wonder how long I'd be there if I was traveling on my own...

That said, the rest of the trip (Cardiff, Ystradgynlais, London, Cambridge, Stockholm) was great, and the people were very friendly. So my advice: don't let customs agents color your impression of what the rest of the trip will be like. They are a poor and unfortunate representation of the country.
Rayna
Santa Barbara, CA USA Mon 04/14/2008

To Chris
Thanks Chris for verifying my own preliminary research on Italy and Cambodia. Those are my dream locations.

thanks again
Dreamy Traveler
USA Fri 03/28/2008

Germanic Countries
I spent some time in Liechtenstein and Zurich last summer. Once I crossed from the French speaking Switzerland to the German speaking part, I felt like saying "I'm not in Kansas anymore." No one was outright mean, but people were less than friendly. Perhaps it was because I couldn't speak any German. I've never felt uncomfortable in France or Switzerland. Liechtenstein was not bad. But, I did feel like the odd person out. There were very few black people there. But, I still had a good time. I had friends who were outright treated shamefully in other parts of Switzerland. I would probably not go back to a German speaking country by myself because I didn't like how I felt.
Deena
NYC, NY USA Sun 03/23/2008

Vienna
JM, I have to agree with you. I traveled to Vienna almost two years ago & I can truly say that I regretted staying in Austria as long as I did. It was the second time I had traveled to Austria. I could feel the tension in the air & I had a weird moment on a train from Salzburg to Munich when a plain-clothed "polizei" randomly asked to see my passport. I made sure I held on to it and gave him a dirty look. I think he got the hint and when he saw I was American, he walked away.

Everyone has different experiences, but Vienna & the whole of Austria, I will probably never travel to again.
K
Los Angeles, CA USA Wed 03/05/2008

European Travels -- Then and Now
I am African-American, born and raised, and I haven't been to Europe since I studied at Oxford University in the mid 1990s, which was my first trip to Europe. I was based in Oxford, and I took side trips to London, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Paris, Athens, and the Greek Isles while I was there. I experienced some racism/prejudice while I was in Oxford (I saw skinheads smash a store window of a minority business, an Indian or Pakistani clerk told me his experience in Oxford and that the town was "backwards," and I was stared at as I walked down the street in the residential neighborhoods off-campus with my American university's name very prominently displayed on my sweatshirt). British and French customs were quite rude to me when I tried to enter the country on a side trip to Paris (reentry to Britain). They didn't believe that I was in law school at the time. French policemen in Paris stared at me as I strolled around La Sorbonne. African and Arab Parisians wanted to talk to me and share their experiences living in Paris. Interesting. Greece was ok; I had no problems in Athens or on the islands. Overall, my European experience was eye-opening for me; I was glad to return to the USA, and I became appreciative of my lifestyle here, although America is far from perfect. I'm planning on going to Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, and Italy this summer on business and leisure. I'm hoping for a realistic, but better experience.
HarlemGlobetrotter <email>
Harlem, NY USA Fri 02/29/2008

Vienna
Noel, I have never been to Liverpool or Geneva but I was in Vienna with my afro-panamanian husband (I am white). There is only one other place in the world where we were treated worse and that was Boston. In Vienna people were downright nasty. We were ignored in restaurants, a ticket agent in the train station refused to help me. The Austrian passport control agent gave my husband a very hard time(we took the train from Munich). I believe he was trying to start an argument with him but my husband was cool and didn't take the bait. We couldn't wait to get out of there and we were worried that Salzburg and Innsbruck would be the same but the people there were much nicer and more helpful than in Vienna.

Note that we were not first time travelers, we've traveled all over the states, Central American and Europe. We are always polite and learn key phrases in the different languages and try very hard to avoid that "ugly american" sterotype. Vienna was just not a nice place.
JM
New York, NY USA Wed 02/27/2008

. I think we're more likely to interpret bad behavior from non Americans as being racist because of our history with white Americans. Often their impatience is just because we're American and we're clueless about other people's cultures and practices. We go to other countries and act arrogant. In other words they know far more about us than we know about them.
USA Mon 02/25/2008

Geneva, Vienna, Liverpool - Opinions plz
I'm Afro-Canadian and I've taken a couple of solo trips to Europe. Experiences:

* France - Went to Paris twice. b4 and after the riots. Most times people assumed I was French but I was still treated okay.

* Netherlands - Would go back every year. Friendly people, great cities and that's without prostitutes and drugs!

* Belgium - People were VERY frosty, but I suspect it had nothing to do with race.

* England - London: Wow! People were FAR from frosty. They were so friendly. Have to return. Manchester: Never again; I think I was "profiled" at the airport, which is a first.

Two Afro-Canadians I know went to Salvador in Brazil in August 2007 and they had the worst racist incident at a restaurant there. [Salvador is very Afro-Brazilian, BTW.] The waitress thought they were African and wouldn't seat them. When they spoke to her in English, she brought menus outside to them, but still blocked them when they tried to enter the restaurant. They eventually left, but while they were "sorting it out" with her, several white people arrived and were seated.

Planning trips to Liverpool, Geneva and Vienna this year. Opinions on these destinations would be very helpful. Thx.
Noel Lee
Toronto, Sun 02/24/2008

Enjoy Paris!
Hi Brenda I'm a black American living in London for more than 5yrs. I visit Paris about once a month for two weeks at a time, sometimes up to three months as I'm dating a Parisian there. I have never had Africans treat me badly while I've been there. In fact, I've found many to be warm and very curious. I'm from NYC and I think if you're from an urban/big city you know all about pushy or rude or impersonal kinds of attitudes and the French in general are no different than any other big city dwellers. If you're talking about white French people, that's another story.

I've never had anything like Oprah's racist Hermes moment happen. But obviously, the French do have grave problems around ethnicity and religion.

1. Try to learn some of the language before you get there. You will definitely have an easier time and it's just good practice to greet people in their own language before making requests. Many people will warm up as a result. 2. Try to visit some of the areas outside tourist traps. A good place to see lots of black people is northern Paris, at the St Ouen open air market. Some say it's the largest fleamarket in Europe. Don't know if it's true but there are loads of Africans from all over the continent there, selling there wares. Around the perimeter, it's like Harlem on steroids. On the inside it's all pristine antique Eurocentric expensive items. 3. Try to blend in as much as you can. There is a negative sentiment about Americans in general that has nothing to do with being black. I think we're more likely to interpret bad behavior from non Americans as being racist because of our history with white Americans. Often their impatience is just because we're American and we're clueless about other people's cultures and practices. We go to other countries and act arrogant. In other words they know far more about us than we know about them.

I hope this is helpful. By the way, Sacre Coeur area isn't as rough as others might lead you to believe. You just have to be a smart traveler. Enjoy Paris!
New Yorker in London
London, USA Sat 02/23/2008

Don't Let Subtle Indifference in Paris Ruin Your Trip
Hi Brenda in DC:

Just would like to comment on your solo Paris trip. First, congratulations! I made my solo trip to Paris in September 2005 (went again in 2006), just before the "race" riot broke out. Yes there is in subtle racism in Paris, particularly of the African/Parisians against Black Americans and particularly around the non-tourist areas in Paris.

Of note, I want to point out that this is my opinion and my experiences and should not be taken as the general rule. My travels only took me to certain parts of Paris, and I was only there for 7 days at a time so that does not make me an expert on racism in Paris, France nor does it suggest that Paris, as a whole, is racist.

Anyhoo, the first time I rented an apartment in the 6th district I noticed that there were virtually no blacks in this area; especially at night. I would like to point out that this area, along with the 3rd through the 7th is a high tourist area.

The first time I went, I came across a restaurant and the dog of the owner for no reason started barking at me in attack mode (thank God he was chained in). He actually lunged at me! This was after about 50 white people walked by (racism?…don't know why was I singled out and yes I was the only black person around).

Secondly, I initially rented an apartment through a well connected website. After faxing my picture ID and credit card information. The apartment was no longer available (this after the real estate agent hounded me up to the minute about getting my information in and assuring me that the apartment was available). Racism…don't know?

Thirdly, a few African/Parisians gave us African-American sisters that were traveling together (and one Hispanic) a few dirty looks. One wouldn't let us sit by her comfortably on the metro (she had her legs spread so far apart, I though she was about to give birth).

Overall, I saw that most all the African/Parisians and other minorities were mostly concentrated in the 18th district (around Moulin Rouge and Sacre Coeur). Just like everywhere there are places you would not be caught dead in at night and this was the area, I personally didn't feel comfortable there and high-tailed it back to my apartment in the 6th. Most tour guides will tell you to be careful in this area.

Overall, I did like it in Paris (going back for the third time in the fall 2008). The majority of the shop keepers were very friendly and I took their indifference to me to be contributed to the fact that I spoke little or no French and their impatience wore thin. (I learned the next time I went though)

So take it for what it's worth. I have no problem with Parisians or African/Parisians and I will certainly go back again, just a little bit wiser and speaking a hella lot better French than before. I owe them that!

See ya and good luck!
dkritype4u <email>
Houston, Texas USA Mon 02/11/2008

Paris
I'm taking my second solo vacation to Europe this spring. Last year it was Florence, and this time it is Paris. I'm a little apprehensive concerning Paris and its 'race' issues. I'm African American and heard that we are spared the harsher treatment dealt to Africans there. Can anyone attest to that statement?

editors note: All questions must be posted to Travelers Helpline
Brenda <email>
Washington, DC USA Wed 01/30/2008

Eastern Europe
I'm an African-American male who mostly travels alone, but sometimes friends come with me. I've been to England, France, Germany, Italy, etc. and want to see some of Central/Eastern Europe. I wanted to know if anyone had any experiences they could share.

I'll probably stick to major cities. I had no problems in Prague, so I'm pretty sure I can handle Budapest. I'd like to hear about Slovakia, Slovenia and Croatia. If I survive all those and feel really adventurous I might want to see Belgrade. Any other places you can recommend would help as well. Thanks.
Brad
Charlotte, NC USA Mon 01/14/2008

Italy
Italy was my favorite country during my 3 month journey through Europe. If you have any problems it probably won't be because of your ethnicity. I found the Italians very friendly
Thomas
Washington, DC USA Fri 01/11/2008

To Dreamy Traveler
Italy and Cambodia will be perfectly fine. No worries. Italy is one of the best countries for blacks to visit as I rarely hear any complaints from any blacks that have been there, and I myself have not had problems there. SE Asian people are extremely friendly. You might get looks as I did, but they are 100% curiosity looks and not the type of KKK stare downs you might get in Arkansas. Go to Italy and Cambodia and have a blast, you will for sure!
Chris
L.A., CA USA Wed 01/02/2008

re: travelling abroad
I just had a good chuckle at what NYC said, "Spainsh people concider themselves Europeans and not hispanic or latin."

Well of course Spaniards are Europeans, what did you think they were? Mexicans? For the record Latin is not a "race" its a language spoken by the Romans, and its used to describe other languages that descend from Latin. (Spanish being one of them). The term "Latin" America was first coined by the French in the 19th century to justify their own colonial ambitions in South America again to imply French and Spanish relation to the Latin language (Roman). The term "Hispanic" atleast in the Americas is a generic term used to describe lands and cultures that were once part of the Spanish empire.

Well I'm done with the history lesson, just had to get that out. I just find it funny that when Spanish is mentioned most Americans automatically think Mexican. LOL Think outside the box Americans "European" is not just Germanic speaking Scandinavians!
John <email>
Torrance, Ca USA Tue 01/01/2008