traffic ticket
This subject has been previously discussed, but in 5/06 we were in Italy and yesterday received a traffic ticket for 'circulating in an authorized area'. We were never stopped there at the time. It is almost 2 yrs. Do we pay this? Thank-you.
Lois
Q.B. 2/23/08
Send Private Message
Page:1 Next ›
Did you receive it "certified" or "registered"? If you did not, then legally you have not "received" it.
I would just toss it. That is what my brother did, and he had no problem when he returned.
But.........if you want to be paranoid, and like paying for something that you did not do.....pay for it!
...and for more info on this "ripoff" read the following on TA:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187895-i68-k1475356-Traffic_ticket_scams-Florence_Tuscany.html
Well I'm no expert on how the Italians enforce their laws, but it does seem that every time you check into a hotel they take your passport and register your info with the local police (or so I've been told). So if you were in the country and they wanted to find you, it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult.
I suspect that Italian (and other) jurisdictions have imposed the "zona traffico limitato" zones to reduce some of the congestion in the larger cities (similar to what London has done with the congestion charge). Unfortunately, naive tourists are being caught by these as well.
Virtually ALL rental car agreements contain a clause specifying that the renter agrees to pay any traffic fines. By signing the contract, the renter is obligated to pay these. Whether there will be any consequences for ignoring the tickets is still a matter of debate.
European authorities appear to be using a "clearing house" to process the tickets, which might explain the delay in receiving the tickets. The data from the Cameras has to be collected, sent to the clearing house and then a ticket mailed.
I tend to follow the same policy as Kent, and usually avoid renting cars in Europe (especially in cities!). I use a "strategic" approach and rent only when it's necessary due to time limitations or location.
Yes, it was sent registered.
They must have obtained our address from rental car company, but it had USA on it instead of Canada and we still got it.....lol
Checking a map, it was a main road right beside a hospital, dont know how it could have been unauthorized.
Steve...I'll remember that the next time I get a photo radar speeding ticket in Oregon! :)
Lois, I am in a similar situation as you. ZTL violations in Florence last July, got the letter last week. I note that it is the local Florence police trying to collect, I don't know how connected they are to the national police as it pertains to the ability to track international scofflaws. I'm guessing "not very", but I don't have any info to make an informed judgment. Since I am not in the habit of contacting unknown entities and giving them my VISA card number just because they ask with an official looking letter, I'm going to wait and see what happens. I would probably pay right away if the fine was reasonable, but at $150 a whack I'm going to see how this plays out instead.
Unlike others, I will continue to drive in Italy, France, and everywhere else, and quite often, but will try to be more vigilant about signage.
A few further comments on this situation......
The world seems to be getting more "connected" all the time. Consider the ease that European ATM's communicate with Banks in North America.
Although there are no reciprocal arrangements in place yet (AFAIK) between European and North American traffic authorities, I think it's possible this will happen in future. I'm sure Police here would also like to collect fines from Europeans that receive tickets while driving here, and then return home without paying them.
I know what you are saying Neil, our ticket was 111 euros and if not paid in 60 days 180 euros. Sure seems a lot for the 'offense'.
If anyone has done Kent's test case, let us know.
You recieved a ticket almost two years after the alleged incident? I've heard of time delays but this is ridiculous.
And what does "circulating in an authorized area" mean?
Write back and say you will not pay the ticket because too far an amount of time has elapsed, you don't remember driving in that area, you don't understand what the ticket means, and that had you been presented with a ticket on the spot, or within a reasonable amount of time, you might have been inclined to take it seriously. For all you know, the police were just writing down license plate numbers and sending tickets months and years later assuming you wouldn't fight it.
You could then say you will warn others on the internet of this "scam" and send a copy to the Italian Visitors Bureau and the Florence Visitors Bureau. The ticket will probably be dismissed.
This is the same reason crooks tend to prey on tourists. By the time they go to court, it's doubtful you'll come back for the trial.
Speaking as a European and frequent traveller to Italy, I'd ignore it. For a start, this is Italy, where the wheels of bureaucracy turn oh-so-slowly. Which is why you had to wait 2 years for your ticket!
Secondly, it's a traffic ticket and Italy is a country in the European Union, not a lawless third world state. They can't lock you up for a traffic ticket, or stop you from coming into the country, or from leaving. Since they don't have your passport number, it would be hard for them to even figure out it is you at the border -- if they even cared about traffic tickets. Worst case the traffic police could demand you pay it on the spot if they figured it out when you went back and they found you and put you into a computer.
Thirdly, we are talking about a local government and not the state -- they're not the best administered organisations. Heck, there isn't even a reciprocal traffic ticket system between California and Texas, never mind Italy and your state.
Mathew
Thanks everyone for your input.
I will report here of any further developments.
Lois, I largely agree with poster Mathew and share his sentiment about the doubtfulness of the ability of local police to synch up enforcement with the national gendarmerie or Italian customs for that matter. However, it's not a foregone conclusion that they don't have your passport number. After all, the rental agency took down your passport number when you rented the car and they have been giving your personal info to the police. It's plausible to contemplate the possibility that the police have your passport number too.
But then again, as noted earlier I am not participating in any payment scenario myself either, regardless of whether or not they have my passport number.
Sorry for getting into this thread late, but I just received 2 tickets from florence today. Both are within 5 minutes of the other on streets that are mighty close. Sad thing here is that our hotel was in the middle of a limited traffic zone. We had no other way to get out of the city (that we were aware of). Each are about 95euros. I believe these fines are beyond punative, especially when the "rules" of driving in Florence were not in any of our 3 2007 Florence guide books, on any of the "driving in Italy" websites we viewed prior to traveling and were not presented at all by our Italian car rental agency. Further, we asked the hotel about how to drive to the hotel from Rome and nothing was shared about the "rules of the road" in that conversation either. I do not read italian, but the translation on these signs is not all that difficult to understand. They DO NOT state NO DRIVING, but rather, "LIMITED" driving in those specified zones. I wish I could fight this in court!
Brad, you should check out the link Steve provided in the first posted response in this thread. Some visitors have been successful obtaining relief by contacting the hotel in which they stayed and asking the hotel to lobby for quashing of the ticket on their behalf.
Well, I read with interest all of the comments. I got 5 notices last week. All within minutes on the same day last September--3 upon entering and 2 more when leaving. We didn't know (hadn't seen anything in books or on maps). The day was rainy and traffic awful. Anyway, at 92 euros each, it caught my eye. Anyone not pay?
Restricted driving areas have signs that read "Zona Traffico Limitato." Drivers that live in the area have a permit which allows them to drive. I'm sorry but it's YOUR responsibility to learn the rules when driving in a foreign country. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in the US and it isn't in Italy. When Italians rent a car in the US they do not expect signs in English and to be allowed to break laws driving laws because they were not aware of them.
SamSn, I would suggest you climb down from your high horse. Lois isn't suggesting the signing wasn't there, just that she didn't notice them. Perhaps your contention is that she should pay the tickets because she violated the law. If there is an area in the US which is heavily trafficked by foreign tourists, has restrictions to most vehicles listed on road signs, and has a camera enforcement system in place that sends heavy fines to violaters, I don't know about it. Accordingly, for many tourists there is no expectation that this is going to happen to them. Lois is suggesting that it's confusing driving in Italian big cities and often all one is trying to do is find a parking space. Even driving to acceptable public parking in Florence such as the train station can easily lead one through the ZTL traps. If Italian authorities really wanted less traffic in these areas as opposed to simply enjoying a handy revenue source, they could easily change the system.
Don't count on your hotel or parking garage to register your rental car license with anybody. They know you will be long gone when the problem erupts. I almost got burned in fall 2004 when the Florence gendarmes were ramping up this scheme. I should have stopped by the hotel and garage last year and given them a piece of my mind.
Calm down Neil. My message was in no way directed to Lois. I do find it amusing that there are travelers that think that "limited" driving zones mean that since driving is limited it doesn't apply to them. There have been several complaints on the board about the signs being in Italian (in Italy of all places!) and that they were not aware of the rules. These are things to think about before driving in another country.
Those receiving these collection notices may note that the reason they are sent regular mail and not "return receipt requested" is that the letters come from a bill collector, not the police. Evidently the police ship these fines directly to a bill collection agency instead of trying to collect the fines themselves, the opposite of what those in the US commonly expect. It's efficient from the point of view of the police as they are relieved of the messy business of nickel-and-diming scofflaws. I think it also speaks to the high dollar amount of the fines, because right off the bat the fine needs to pay the police and the collection agency.
Also note these letters state they are, in a somewhat contradictory fashion, a "Notice of Payment Before the Notification." The small print at the bottom of the page states, "The present notice is not a Notification of violation and so permits the receiver to make the due payment in amicable circumstances thus avoiding the consequences (cont.)
..of a notification according to the International Conventions in force."
I'm guessing here that this notice looks official enough that many people pay right away. I have also heard of others who have received "return receipt requested" mail and I assume these are the official "notification" letters one receives if no payment is made after the first letter.
It appears inconclusive what happens if one doesn't respond to the original collection letters. I personally don't provide credit card numbers to entities unknown to me soliciting said information. It's pretty easy to send official looking letters and prepare a web service that appears on the up-and-up. The large number of very genuine-looking eBay and PayPal spoof emails confirms this for me.
I just got 2 tickets, 92 euros each from the EMO for the same stuff all this discussion is about. Even my brother in law (Italian) who lives in there, in Siena, got a ticket in Rome, another ticket I am waiting too since I was following him all the time. Of course he had to pay the fine, but I am not gonna do it, I dont really think they can do any about it more than sending this "amicable letter" so I will keep you informed of what happens. I will appreciate if anyone has more info regarding this subject and also prevent tons of people to fall in these italian traps.
Just my two cents... I recieved a ticket 4 years ago and got the registered mail 11 months after the violation for driving in a restriced area in Pisa. Through email I contacted the local Pisa police department and we conversed back and forth. Suffice to say, they were adament that I pay the fine and gave me a IBAN BANK ACCOUNT number. I contacted the bank and the account was not registered to the magistrate OR the police... so I just did not pay.
Since then I have returned to Italy 5 or 6 times and i now live here. I have rented cars 3 or 4 times and gone through passport control multiple times. So I guess the "local" ordinances in Pisa are not being posted anywhere else.
Like most of you I was driving in an "unauthorized area," although to our knowledge we never left a main street? As of now, I'll wait to pay this until I can fully understand why and how I committed this offense. Now very careful WHERE I drive!
For what it is worth and not vouching for the accuracy of the info, it is at least interesting: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
Paul said, "For what it is worth and not vouching for the accuracy of the info, it is at least interesting: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm ".
Interesting web link. It says if you do not pay the fine, your car rental agency will pay it and charge it to your credit card, and that there's no way to cancel this charge.
I wonder if anybody here can report that this ever happened to them.
I know credit card companies are often willing to cancel disputed charges, but perhaps they won't if your "case" is that you got a traffic ticket but you just don't want to pay it.
I went to the trouble of checking the domain registration info on the website for the link Paul mentions. It's registered to Remo A Meier in Zürich Switzerland. I don't know that this tells me much, other than that least the website isn't directly owned by an Italian government entity!
I guess I passed on the link because in reviewing the information, it was presented logically and in line with other information I had seen. A simple Google search turned up lots of BB discussions and similar articles. As for veracity of any info, I can agree on several points: There are most definitely restricted zones in many Italian cities. Cameras are more common place and validated as legitimate ways to impose fines for traffic infractions. Our ignorance regarding local traffic laws nor being from out of town (Country?) is sufficient defense for not complying (Think seat belt laws in the US). As for charging your credit card, I found that interesting, potentially the Rental Agency could be liable and in the fine print of the agreement, you may have signed up for that.
Some other things I picked up...There is actually a time limit (Statute of Limitations sort of thing) of 360 days for non-EU residents regarding violations in Italy, unfortunately the clock starts when they get your information (undefined at best) rather than date of violation. Given the slow workings of Italian organizations, it may very well be months and years until notification. Lots of discussion by Brits and issues with Pisa, Florence, and other Italian cities, but being EU, they have more protections. However EU fines and traffic violations are soon to be consolidated with common reporting, so they may get away with less in the end. Lest we bash Italy, similar issues have been reported with the Swiss and of course the UK may be camera central (I was specifically warned in England that any and all fines would be directly sent to me and even the very small office I was in, the agent had a stack of a dozen tickets he was processing)
Here is an interesting link regarding Perugia and their restricted zones. ( http://www.perugiaonline.com/tfintpgus.html ) It explains how the system works, an RFID device essentially. Lost the link, but another spoke of a way for you to go onto a Pisa website and get both the data and a picture of you driving in the restricted area.
We will be picking up a car in Florence (but not driving in Florence) and driving to Siena, Pompeii, Naples and dropping off in Rome. How do I find out who has restricted zones? Would A GPS in the rental car have that info?
I doubt that the GPS will warn you, several people have commented that they were following their GPS as to why they entered the zones. As for zones, Siena does have restricted zones, it is recommended you park near the train station outside of town. Rome has many areas with the electronic monitoring of cars and restricted zones. Not sure of Naples/Pompeii, but I wouldn't suggest driving there at all.
Page:1 Next ›