Why you don't want to drive in Florence
Florence hands out a $125 ZTL fine about every 2 minutes - 450,000 in 2008.
They use automatic cameras that photograph your license plate as you drive past a camera into the ZTL (zone of limited traffic, which means if your license plate isn't in the city computer, you get a ticket).
The ZTL basically blankets the historic core area of Florence.
Each ticket is about $125 plus fees and many have received multiple tickets in a period of a few hours. The current record holder on this site got 10 tickets for $1,250.
The link below gives more information on the ZTL's and has a map. It also explains your options if you've already gotten a ticket(s) in the mail:
Driving into Florence isn't a good idea
Kent
Pacific Northwest 3/17/09
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Thanks Kent. That is a good one to bookmark.
Thanks for the heads-up on this, Kent. I have been a proponent of not paying these fines in the past. Having read every word of the web page you linked, I am now absolutely convinced this is the correct approach.
Contrary to the info on the web page, the second notice letter is not always registered.
This is a quote from the webpage:
"If you are unable or unwilling to apply any of the procedures described on this page to have your fine cancelled, consider (carefully) not responding and not paying. Your action or lack of action might take account of whether or not you live in the EU and how much you fear a negative credit rating in the USA. We have seen no evidence to date that true debt collection agencies are being used to collect these fines."
Neil...you may want to read the rest of the quote that Kent filed after your response...and why is it the "correct" response? You may also want to check Ellen's entry below. "In October 2007 we rented a car in Italy. A year later a $90 charge appeared on my Amex bill for a traffic ticket. The rental car company billed my Amex card in March 2009 for $50 as an "administrative fee" covering the cost of providing information to Italian traffic authorities."
Add Vicenza to your list. We were staying near there in April. On our first visit to the city, my husband suggested we try to get closer to the historic center than the garage a couple of blocks outside the walls. I spotted the ZTL signs (thanks to all the discussion on this site) within a block of driving in, and I immediately beat a hasty retreat. I'm not sure if I intruded into the forbidden area or not, but it's getting close to a year. . . By the way, if you are going, we followed the centro signs. There is a large park just outside the historic area where the garage is located. There's very clear signage. There's also a garage near the train station. Rates are not too high.
Even though the post itself goes on a bit of a "Italy's out to soak tourists" rant at its end, it confirms that the ZTLs penalize residents of these cities as hard as anyone.
Hey, the city governments took advantage of an inexpensive technology to reduce illegal traffic in the precious historic centers of these towns. Is anyone really arguing that we'd like to see the medieval character of Florence, Pisa, Lucca, Arrezzo, choked with traffic?
Surprisingly unremarked upon in all these discussions is that Italy has posted photo radar on the Autostrade. The cameras have warning signs a half mile or so away and they're also marked on Viamichelin's maps. But I think they've had the effect of slowing traffic down from the famous excesses of the past - which is welcome when one is driving an underpowered Fiat Punto instead of a Ferrari.
Norm, to answer your question specifically...it is the correct response, for me, because my car rental contract did not provide for the agency paying fines I would incur. Other people I can't advise. I don't know what an Amex card is. Is it American Express? If so, I didn't know people still used those. With all due respect to Ellen, I don't assume she was charged $90 for a traffic ticket. These ZTL tickets are more than $90, and she was probably charged the fee for providing info to the police.
As Kent has pointed out, even some Florentine politicians believe their hand is a little too heavy as it pertains to the frequency and amount of fines not fitting the crime.
Speeding is a different subject. Everyone knows what speed limit signs look like and where you should expect them. I cannot empathize with those wishing to avoid paying speeding tickets.
Doug, regarding your contention that "the ZTLs penalize residents of these cities as hard as anyone," the article confirms nothing of the kind. It is silent on the subject of the ratio of fines issued to locals as opposed to tourists. I do note however that it states that the fines "are unreasonably high, unreasonably duplicated and, by accident or design, selectively and unfairly penalise tourists." Perhaps you can offer a different phrase that supports your theory, but I didn't see one.
Some things in the article don't bear up to scrutiny, math-wise. The first paragraph in the box should read "90 tickets every hour" instead of "90 tickets every minute" if one is to believe the setup for this calculation which is a violation every 40 seconds. Also, 1,253 tickets per day does not get you to the 860,000 tickets per year claimed. I do note the 40:1 ratio of parking/speeding tickets. Italians are not characteristically a slow-driving people. Dare I suggest that the parking garage-searching, lap map-consulting, semi-hysterical wife-listening, low-hanging foreign fruit is being targeted?
Discuss.
Neil - my point was made by the first part of Kent's post that you quoted - Florentine politicians say the traffic fines are too heavy handed.
The quote you selected about hitting tourists hard was from what I labeled a "rant" from the conclusion of the blog post.
Nobody has yet said that the fines fall harder on tourists than residents. The cameras simply record license plate numbers and the municipalities send fines to the owners of records. What must occur, not surprisingly, is that collections of the fines are turned over to an agency that has figured out how to go after the rental car agencies. As this article, and others recently posted here have said, collection of local traffic fines are becoming enforceable by international convention.
And, finally, I will observe, that Italy does a good job of posting warning signs in its ZTLs and on the Autostrade - albeit in Italian and with unfamiliar symbols to Americans (crossed hammers mean working days to Europeans, not vague Communism to us). If Portland posted parking and traffic signs in clear Italian, I'd be more critical of traffic policing in Italy.
Here's some more reading.
http://www.florencenewspaper.it/vediarticolo.asp?id=a7.12.04.17.14
Interesting that motorcycles and scooters are exempted, which works out great for me!!!
These discussions we've had on this topic usually start with, "I've received this letter from an Italian collection agency stating I have received a driving citation. Should I pay it?" The useful information in the article pertaining to this question are the following: "We have seen no evidence to date that true debt collection agencies are being used to collect these fines. There is unlikely to be any communication between municipal traffic authorities and the national immigration service. Next time you visit Italy, you can't be arrested at an airport for not paying a traffic fine."
Moral issues and schoolmarm finger-wagging set aside for the moment, I believe these quotes are factual. Unless one's car rental contract specifically states your credit card can be charged for the actual fine, there is no repercussion for nonpayment. Allusions to one's credit rating being affected pertain only to not paying your credit card bill, nothing else. EU residents have more considerable challenges, but the article confirms what I believe which is that unless those attempting to collect these fines enlist the services of a "true collection agency" operating in the US or Canada, North American residents need not fear any repercussions for nonpayment.
My point is that unless your credit card company is forced to pay the fine for you, there is no reason to pay these fines either from fear you would have to pay it eventually with additional penalties or fear about unpleasantness in Italian Customs on future visits. But if you feel paying is the right thing to do, by all means go right ahead. In any event the effectiveness of collection letters sent by EMO to North American residents are based on their official looking-ness rather than any real gravitas to back up the threat.
Unfortunately, Neil makes certain assummptions about Ellen's post that are incorrect. If he had checked the entire quote, he would have seen she was charged a further fee by the rental company for "processing." As well, to suggest that one's credit rating can only be affected by non-payment of credit card bills is nonsense. Any outstanding debt not paid can affect one's credit rating. I have a mortgage and a car payment, bills for hydro, water, electricity and the like, none of which I pay by credit card....but if I don't pay them, my credit rating can be affected. And why does he dismiss AMEX? Of course people still use them...I use my AMEX constantly for business expenses and, yes, I call it an AMEX card.
Neil also makes the indefensible point that, if it's not illegal or enforceable in your home country, then you're not responsible for your actions while abroad. When we travel to other countries, we assume the obligation to honour their laws. I hear countless stories of Americans and Canadians facing penalties, including death, for crimes in other countries that wouldn't face the same serious punishment here...and they seem truly amazed that consular officials can't simply spirit them out of the country to the safety of home. If we want visitors to obey our laws then we, in turn, must do the same.
This touches on the "moral finger wagging" that Neil tries, unsuccessfully, to separate out from this discussion. Our laws are a reflection of our moral stand on life. We outlaw certain things and accept others based upon the moral code of conduct we freely choose as a western democratic society. The issue of obeying a law and morality cannot be separated....one is a reflection of the other.
To answer your question, Kent, my opinion is that it certainly does matter. Look...the Italian authorities in these historic cities did not create the relics housed in their fine museums. They did not even build the museums. They took no part in constructing the historic buildings and parks. They maintain them, which costs money. These items ended up residing where they live, and they get to reap the benefit of millions of tourists who wish to drop a fair amount of cash in their laps for the privilege of viewing them. Sure, the official intent of ZTL laws is to "protect" the downtown areas. Does this mean these laws cannot be abused? I submit that they can. Some Florentine politicians agree. I'm sure many locals agree. I can understand how there are people who believe everything the government says you should do, you should do. I'm not one of them if it seems unfair or doesn't pass the test of reason I've constructed in my mind or if the penalty is not great enough.
Norm, you can sputter all you want about slacking morals. It's not a coercive argument, but I hear ya buddy.
Neil...I don't splutter...and I said nothing about slacking morals. Perhaps, once again, you may want to actually read through what I and others actually said, rather than making wild assumptions about what you THINK we said. My argument is actually very simple....trying to separate the moral argument from the legal argument is just an excuse to justify not obeying a law that you may not happen to like. Despite your claim that "there are people who believe everything the government says you should do, you should do. I'm not one of them," you're locked in your society's values just like the rest of us....you don't get to pick and choose which laws you obey, and which you won't.
Kent....interesting figures. If we can assume they are correct, and since the overwhelming majority of traffic in Florence is Florentine, or at least Italian, then we can probably assume that the overwhelming majority of ZTL tickets go to locals or Italians. Not exactly an argument that tourists are being especially targeted...and how can an inanimate object target someone or something specific anyway?
Norm, I don't disagree with you. However, I think one cannot discount out of hand the degree to which governments, local and otherwise, entertain various degrees of corruption. The theory of "government by the people" is valid if you accept the notion that if folks don't like what their legislators do, they can vote them out. This is a quaint notion. Perhaps even more so in Italy. In the specific case, it seems the Italians are unable or unwilling to stem the amount of unwanted ZTL traffic, but instead of addressing the official problem they choose to ignore it because they have grown accustomed, dare I say addicted to the revenue it brings. Despite the hue and cry from residents and tourists, they don't change the system. Besides, tourists aren't voters so why care about them? Call me cynical, but whenever money is involved you cannot tell what behind-the-scenes machinations take place. Government often creates nonsensical, unfair, intractable laws and the only recourse for Joe Public is to ignore or avoid them when possible. Here in Washington we have a similar problem with the state controlling a monopoly on the sale and distribution of alcohol. Everyone agrees the laws are archaic and ridiculous, but state government is addicted to the money. It doesn't mean the law makes sense, it simply means governments sometimes use the power of law in terrible ways. Populist uprising in these situations runs up against well-financed special interest groups who stand to lose MONEY. It's a laughingly lopsided contest.
But if you want to promote the idea that all laws are good or they wouldn't exist, I won't disabuse you of that idea. You're welcome to it.
The bottom line for the ZTL issue is that overwhelming evidence exists that US (and probably Canada) residents who don't pay ZTL fines will suffer no repercussions. This is simply a fact uttered without any "right" or "wrong" sentiment attached.
I think I'll just call you cynical! ;)
All interesting points and discussions.
But, I'd like to emphasize the most important take-away of this article is that we should not indiscriminately apply North American cultural values about driving to driving in Italy.
So many people drive to their hotel because they have "fear of public transit" and because that's what they would do here. They complain the "The rental agency never told me about the ZTLs!" (Why should they?) They decide the ticket isn't fair because it took too long to arrive! The fine is disproportionate to the crime-- therefore it's all a scam!
No, it's not a scam, it's a different system and a different culture and different values about your personal right to drive anywhere you want whenever you want.
I disagree with this website's rant that the fines unfairly target tourists. I think that ZTLS are only used in places that are so over-congested that they are vital and necessary to protect historic structures and art from corrosive auto emissions. Most importantly they preserve the quality of life for tourists and residents alike. I can't imagine how Florence could be more congested than it already is, so if anything it appears traffic enforcement isn't effective enough. Ouch.
The lesson to be learned is don't drive in Florence--even if you think you can get away with it--because Florence doesn't need your traffic. Respect the place that you love so much you will travel across half the world to visit by using transit to get to the center. It's important and necessary and we all thank you for it.
And if even if you don't agree with the website, I think it opens your eyes that you are not in Kansas anymore. By the way, most people on this board get that, but I'm always amazed by people who don't do their homework before they rent a car. Driving in another country is serious business.
I have to agree with Kent. The stories I have heard about people getting multiple tickets because they were lost seem excessive. I believe in the golden rule...and I hope we in the US never treat visitors who are lost as some people have been treated in Italy. There is something to be said for the "human" touch i.e. someone reviewing these tapes and deciding the appropriate fine instead of just heaping the tickets on because it is legal. I also agree with the article on whether this is best for tourism. This may all be legal and therefore there is little we can do when we get a ticket. However, Italy may find they won the battle but lost the war.
Linda, sometimes the best reply is no reply at all. Very masterfully done, and I applaud your avant-garde approach. (golf clap)
Given this critical acclaim I will have to rank this as one of my most useful and popular posts-- which once again demonstrates that Less is More.
Hmm. Now if only I could get that point across in those "My Europe Itinerary, please comment" threads...
The subject is a bit misleading ;) because this is all useful information for those of us who might/will be driving there in the future!
I did not realize some of the smaller cities also had ZTLs. I have been reading many guidebooks as sort of cursory initial research (Rough Guide, Fodor's, Eyewitness, etc.) and none of them mention ZTLs for example, in San Gimignano, Lucca, Arrezo, etc. (I'm reading about Tuscany, so those are the cities on the list that I would've noticed).
What the guidebooks DO provide is information regarding parking lots (generally, but not always, outside the cities' walls).
my concern is, is it safe to assume that if you're parking in a lot outside the city walls that you will avoid the ZTL?
That's my biggest problem with the ZTL, that in some of these cases, it's hard to even do the research. I think if you drive in a city like Florence or Pisa that is very well connected with public transport, you kind of get what you ask for. But some of these cities are very commonly visited by those simply staying in an agriturismo for a week, staying away from the big cities (on purpose), and really have to have a car to get around. And I have no problem with the ZTLs, I think they serve a purpose beyond bringing in money, but it would be nice if they made it easier to find maps of the zones and if the guidebooks advised of lots and specifically informed us which ones are "safe" to access. I'd rather have to walk a mile uphill in a hilltown in Tuscany and at least know that I won't be hit with hundreds of dollars in tickets when I get home from a trip.
When I researched this, I found several attempts online to post where these zones are. When you are not familiar with the area, it is like trying to read greek. The map of Florence that Kent posted is about the best attempt I've seen. Your best defense is to study what the sign looks like and always be watching for them when you are in a city. We literally went on "sign alert" whenever we were anywhere near a downtown area.
When I planned my trip to Italy, this is exactly why I decided to take public transportation and my own two feet everywhere I went. I did not want to have to worry about traffic zones, traffic laws I didn't know, signs I didn't understand, etc. I did not have the freedom to go where I wanted, when I wanted, and I spent a fair amount of time in train stations waiting for trains. However, I lost 8 pounds in 15 days from walking so much, despite eating half the gelato in Italy, and I saw a LOT of buildings, people, scenery, and got a LOT of wonderful photos of said objects from walking and not having to pay attention to all that stuff. I am also thoroughly convinced that if I had driven anywhere in Italy, and if I were lucky enough to find a parking spot, I would still be there trying to get OUT of the parking spot! Wow; I was amazed at the parking abilities of people over there! :)
Here is something that I have recently found to be fascinating. You'll need a broadband connection.
Google now has a feature called "Street View." It is amazing! They drove 360 degree cameras all over the world, recording the images you would see at street level and on many of the streets in Florence. You can get a sense of what it is to drive in Florence just by rapidly clicking on the forward arrows.
I'm addicted to it like a video game and can see exactly what the roads are like and how a route will appear. Florence is well covered.
Its amazing stuff...
Here is my problem with this system: I received more than $600 in penalties WITHOUT KNOWING that I had done anything wrong. IF the goal is to reduce traffic in the city center (something I support wholeheartedly), the system should be set up to keep people out. Instead, the system is set up to hand out multiple fines. I have found many many posters on different sites who (like me) received REPEAT fines for the SAME infractions. This means the current system is FAILING if your goal is to reduce traffic (because many of us ended up driving through) but SUCCEEDING if your goal is to raise fines. As a tourist, my goal is to respect local customs/rules and avoid shelling out big bucks unnecessarily. Despite my best intentions, this system helped me do neither. I broke the local customs (unwittingly) and am being pressed to shell out more than $600. I hope Florence will take the time to review this system to help it achieve the goal of sustainable, tourist-friendly tourism.
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, Clinton... you got $600 in fines, that probably means if you go back to Florence you wouldn't drive, right? So, you will bring one less car into the center of Florence and thus reduce traffic. Of course, if you had read the warnings and become familiarized with the iron hammer that is the ZTL before you went, you probably would never have brought the car into the city in the first place. That'd be the ultimate way to reduce traffic - make the ZTL so evil and scary that all tourists are afraid to drive in and don't even bring the cars in to start with. They're reaching that point quickly, it seems. (I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here)
That said, I agree that these multiple infractions are ridiculous and extraneous. Surely, there could be some computer system implemented so that people could - at very least - only receive one infraction per day. If the camera picks up the same license plate multiple times, it could just cancel the extras out or something.
That also said, the ZTL is being mentioned in more and more guidebooks now. I've just been reading a whole bunch and it's in all of them in some way or another, so it's not just Rick fighting the good fight anymore, and tourists who do any modicum of research should be finding out about this beforehand. Perhaps guidebooks need to go one step further and suggest people return their cars at FLR airport and bus/taxi into the city to avoid all chance of a ZTL violation (that's what I'm planning on doing this fall). If, after heeding (or ignoring) these warnings, people still insist upon driving into Florence (which I still don't understand why anyone would even want to do), you have to take the law as it currently stands, and as it currently stands at least in Florence (and from what I've read on other boards, Pisa too), it is VERY strict.
All these moral arguments aside you are forgetting something fundamental. Florence is famous for its traffic, the A1 outside Florence is constantly backed up, for hours at a time. Now take Florence itself, packed with tourists, residents, delivery trucks, etc. Can you imagine how awful it would be if there were no deterrents to keep people from driving in the center? The smog would be unbearable and the traffic would be bumper to bumper. Florence is an ancient city, it was built long before things like parking lots and traffic flow had to be taken into consideration. It is pointless to compare these fines to what happens in North America. North America is huge and new, with all the space you need for parking lots and driving in city centers. If the "injustice" of ZTLs make you so mad, then don't go to Florence. Honestly, people want Italy to be one way: old, quaint, pretty cobblestone streets, beautiful scenic views. But yet they want to be able to access all this by parking as close as possible and with the minimum inconvenience to themselves. You can't have it both ways. I used to live in the historic center of a town and when there were traffic blocks on the "No Smog Sundays" if we went out with the car we couldn't get back to our building with our car until after 7 when the traffic block ended, or we would get a fine. That's just how it was, and I'm a tax paying resident of the town!
Not quite so relevant for Pisa, but bringing this to the top spares us from going through this again and again... Multiple questions about Pisa ZTL tickets recently...
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