10 tickets from Florence in ONE DAY (worth E1000)
Hi, I have just received 10 tickets from Florence. Each one is for 95 Euro. For being in a restricted area. I have no recollection for breaking the rules so many times. And I really do not wish to end up parting with a huge chunk of money. The car was rented through an international network. What should I do? If this was one ticket, I would have paid for it, but 10 of them?????
andy
victoria, BC canada 3/4/09
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I've often heard many Americans insist that Florence "should" have gates restricting access to ZTLs because that's the system we use here in the US for restricted properties e.g. commercial lots, military bases etc. And they assert the lack therof is "unfair." Again, that's applying American assumptions about equal access to the public right-of-way and "the way things should be" to Italy.
A LOT of towns have ZTLs--not just Florence--and even very, very small towns have small ZTLs. They just don't have cameras yet (so if you make a mistake you will probably get away with it). So, the point it's a way of life. Maybe it's a nuisance, but it's not an obscure trap. Italians know they can't just drive into the middle of any town they like. They live like this every day, everywhere they go, all their lives. So, they don't need gates to visually signal a ZTL-- just a sign. Given their different assumptions about driving, our assumptions are probably as puzzling to them as theirs are to us.
This is not very useful to those they have already come and gone and learned the hard way. My intention is to help people to leave their ingrained and unexamined attitudes about driving at home so they will have a better trip.
Andy, for the record, the advice I have given you IS based on first-hand experience. Just in case you think I am falling in on one side of a theoretical argument, I'm not.
In the event that I receive mail from Italy that offers a compelling reason to pay, I will let everyone know. Until then, I wait.
Neil,
The words "Administrative Charges" were copied from the contract document. I suspect they're using those as a non-specific legal "catch all". For example, if one of their staff members has to spend time researching who rented a particular vehicle on a day when a traffic citation was issued, they could charge for staff time and pass that onto the renter? There are all kinds of ways these charges could be applied.
Cheers!
Yes, Ken...it seems clear that most if not all rental contracts allow rental agencies to bill administrative charges to a customer's credit card without prior authorization. If they were able to charge the actual fines to the cards also, I assume they would without further prompting from the police. Since they don't, I think they can't.
Andy....I apologize, but it was you who made the wild comments about Italy while discussing the ZTLs. OK....I'm sorry that you had to unfairly slag Florentines and Italians in general for whatever reason.
You might consider the tickets unfair, and we might not find something like that in Canada. But you were in ITALY, not CANADA. When you travel abroad, you live by their rules, not ours. We expect foreigners to live by our laws here....that's the way it works. Don't get caught stealing in Saudi Arabia, because they may cut your hand off....and there won't be a darn thing that you, or the Canadian government, can do about it.
I don't know what steps you might take to try to appeal the tickets....maybe contact the Italian embassy in Ottawa? I'm sure they'll have someone who can speak English. But, hey, you're determined not to pay them in the first place, so maybe don't waste their time.
And I think you need to do a little review of the definition of a democratic society. I was astonished by your comment that "if I feel a law is patently unfair to me or is unreasonable, and I can get away with not being bound by it, I will. Behaving otherwise is flock-like......This is called freedom and individual responsibility." Actually, it's a great definition of individual irresponsibility. A democratic society doesn't mean everyone gets to go off and do what they like. It means you have a say in what laws are passed to govern society at large. In exchange for the protections that society gives you, you agree to live by the rules. And if you don't like them, you mobilize a majority to change them. While it is an "implied human right to disobey unreasonable or oppressive laws", I hardly think ZTL tickets apply under either category.....Nelson Mandela you ain't ;)
I'm absolutely all for having traffic and parking restrictions in these small historic towns, and I absolutely believe that if you choose to drive in a place, you must learn and obey the laws. What I think is unfortunate is that they make it so hard to learn and obey them. God love LA, but they clearly warn you when you are approaching a stoplight that is photo-enforced, and streets with parking restrictions are clearly marked every few meters. It sounds like in Italy, especially Tuscany, it's nearly impossible to prevent yourself from violating some of these laws. If you don't memorize the ZTL maps in advance, there's not a damn thing you can do if you approach the area, and in another thread, someone reported parking in a completely unmarked parking space and got over 300 euros in tickets. That really is starting to reach ridiculous levels.
I'm saving every extra dollar I have to be able to go to Tuscany this fall, and I would like to rent a car for a week to explore some of the farther-reaching towns. It really would be devastating to me (well, to my finances) to then get home and have exhausted basically all of my savings on a dream trip and receive hundreds of euros in tickets, especially after really trying hard to learn and obey the local rules. They shouldn't bend over backwards to cater to the tourists, but making it a little bit easier would be nice. Now it almost seems like they're making it difficult on purpose so they can slam the tourists for gobs of money.
There's a lengthy page of info on this subject here: http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm If you stayed in a hotel inside the limited traffic zone, you have a very good chance to have the fines cancelled by sending in the relevant documentation. In some cities, these fines have indeed become scandalous because for technical reasons people are being fined multiple times for what is essentially a single infraction.
Debra, you won't get slammed for gobs of money if you do your research and if you refrain from driving into congested cities that are well served by public transit. More than just studying signage, keep in mind that American assumptions about driving don't apply.
Furthermore, ZTLs are not obscure or difficult to learn about. No worries. I'm not saying Italy is perfect, but as a practical matter you'll be very unhappy if you expect them to run their country the way we think they should.
Finally, remember renting a car has financial risks and anyone can make mistakes. You should always budget for this.
I'll cut it short here and direct you 1. to Kent's site about "Driving in Florence" that is in the "To the Boot" section. It's a start. Two other resources are 2. "Italy: Instructions for Use." Available on amazon.com and 3. visit slowtrav.com "Before you go: Driving in Italy." Please visit other links provided previously in this thread.
A last word, driving in Tuscany is entirely different than driving in Florence. Don't confuse the two. The first is a reasonable choice, the latter is not advised.
Link: http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm/rurl/topic/28422/if-you-have-driven-into-florence-historic-center-in-last-year-read-this.html
Oh yes, Linda, I know all that. As soon as I started planning preliminarily, I have read extensively. I was referring to things mentioned in an old thread that was bumped today, where Carl reported receiving over 300 euros in tickets from parking in a space in Pienza that had no signage. I posted here after Kent directed the discussion from that old thread to this one, which is more recent.
I would never eeeever drive in Florence, regardless of driving and parking restrictions - the two taxi rides I took in Florence were enough to convince me that my life would be in danger LOL. I agree that with all of the info out there, anyone who drives in Florence, Rome, or even Siena is asking for trouble in a lot of ways.
Yes, it seems "easier" to drive in Tuscany, but these small towns still seem to have a lot of unmarked restrictions that seem to be able to catch even diligent and careful tourists. I'd never know not to park in a space that has no sign :(
Save for preparing maps where you somehow mark all the places in EACH town that show where you can and can't drive AND park (a very time-consuming and daunting task), I think it'd be nearly impossible to learn all the places you can and can't drive and park beforehand in every little town. I personally find that amount of money in parking tickets for parking in an unmarked spot is reaching the point of gauging.
Most other major expenses that could arise with renting a car would be covered by insurance, such as damage, medical expenses, etc. It seems nearly impossible to plan in advance to get slammed for hundreds of euros while you're there or worse, months after you get home. For a lot of us these trips are a once-in-a-lifetime thing where we save for years. To do a lot of careful planning and still get tickets of those amounts is nerve-wracking to me as someone who's planning a trip to this area.
I'd like to publicly say I was hard on you in my last post Debra. I speak emphatically not so much for you, but because I have seen so many distressed people like Andy show up so many travel boards for so many years, I risk being blunt if it can help someone.
Although life isn't always fair and corruption always exists I don't think you should obsess about that. For the most part, people who received terrible fines are the ones who didn't do their homework before they go. Slowtrav.com has a entire article about parking, how to interpret the signs, what the different color lines mean etc.
Yes, driving is a hellacious amount of research. I spent hours on this. My husband spent even more. And driving was still stressful at times. You are thoughtful enough that I think you will be able to manage driving in Tuscany.
Ok, first hand experience: If the tickets are not paid, the risk is that you will not be able to rent a car from the company you rented from before.
Additional first-hand experience: In English, I wrote (typed), stated my situation, and received a very polite letter exonerating me from the fine. (I had only one.)
Can't promise what your situation would be if you contacted the authorities sending you the notices of the fines, but now you know mine.
Jo, do you mind copying and pasting the letter you sent to the authorities here? thank you
Jo...I have been reading all of the posts after I just received two tickets in two days from our July 08 trip to Florence. I appreciate your first hand experience. We rented our car in Florence after arriving by train, touring the city by mass transit and then leaving the city for Perugia and Assisi. We followed the route to and from the car rental place (that was drawn on the map by the man at the rental place) along a very busy street with cars and plenty of scooters. A few days later we returned the car and took a train to Rome. Somewhere along the way, in all that heavy traffic, we incurred a ticket on the way out and on the way back into the city. When I went on the www.emo.nivi.it site and viewed the pictures of our violations it showed the back of our car and a small portion of the asphalt...no other points of reference etc. but the asphalt had a piece of paper on the street that was present in both photos and in the same location next to the car although the violations were 2 days apart. I swear it looks like the exact same photo between both violations. The problem is we drove one way out and obviously the opposite side of the street back in. Go figure! Maybe I am missing something but I don't see a site where you send your appeal. I guess at this point I am waiting to see if any more violations will arrive in the next few days...frankly Andy's story of 10 tickets is scary...Andy did they all arrive on one day? I contacted the Italian Consulate in Chicago and their response came back the same day stating that: "This parking ticket is very strange. Usually the street fines are notified by this Consulate General to residents in our territorial jurisdiction. It's advisable you to get in touch with the U.S. Consulate General in Florence for assistance. Sincerely Legal Office Consolato Generale d'Italia Chicago" So I have e-mailed the Consulate in Florence and will await their response....thanks for all the info!
I guess it's time again. I think we all have avoided bringing this back up to top, but the inquiries keep comin' in...
For OP in "To the Boot"
I've been following this site for almost 10 years now, and there has been one common thread all that time, Italians ripping off tourists. It's pickpockets, it's cab drivers overcharging or palming big bills, it's waiters adding things not ordered onto the bill, it's phoney hotel room inspectors, it's fake leather coats, the list goes on and on, and it's far more often than not, in Italy. I have never heard of the Italian government running sting operations to try to stop it. Why should they? If money is taken from an American, they just go to the ATM and get more. We're rich. It's ok to steal from the rich. It brings more money into the Italian economy.
Now, after years of doing nothing to stop it, the governments have decided to get in on the act. If they really wanted to stop people from driving into those zones in Florence, they would post the signs in English too, not just for American but for most tourists, because, like it or not, English is the common language. But then non-Italian would see the signs and stay out, and they would lose all those lovely fines.
I for one won't get caught, because I will never visit Italy (except maybe the Süd Tirol). There maybe some neat antiquities in Italy, but it's not worth getting ripped off.
Now I'm really, really, really sorry to have brought this back up to the top.
Note to self: I gotta learn to create links like Kent does...
Why does it have to be in English? The proportion of tourists in Italy with English as their mother tongue is something like 10%. Instead the signs can be understood no matter what language you speak:
This means in every European country "don't drive in here". If there is an additional sign below in the language of the country the sign is located at it would give you exceptions. However, as a tourists chances are extremely slim that those would apply to me so I simply stay out. Very easy. I can obey a sign like that in Italy, in Greece or Finland ... and I don't speak any of these languages. Just because I need to stay out of those streets with my vehicle doesn't mean I have to stay away from the entire country.
However, in one respect I agree as well: if you've never driven in Europe before Italy is not the best place to start doing so.
"The proportion of tourists in Italy with English as their mother tongue is something like 10%"
Actually, it is probably more like 16%, but whether it is their "mother tongue" does not matter? English is the common language of tourism in Europe. The proportion of tourists in Italy who do not understand Italian is more like 96%. The proportion of people in Europe, overall, who understand English is more like 50%, whereas the proportion of non-Italian people in Europe who understand Italian is about 4%. Italian is a very, very insignificant language.
In most places in the world, that symbol simple means that the person is a virgin.
The important thing is that the local authorities know, or should know, that tourists will not understand that it is a non-transit zone and will get caught. The fact that they continue to fine them is not an attempt to keep people out of the zone. It is an blatant attempt to scam money out of tourists.
Well, ahem, Italian is not a insignificant language in Italy! Do I really need to say this?
You seem to be forgetting Italy is a real country, it is not a historic park for tourists. It's meant for Italians.
Oh, man, you're all cursing me for bringing this back up to the top...mea culpa. mea culpa..
Lee,
my point is that if there is a symbol that in ALL OF EUROPE has the same meaning, is understood by all Europeans without having to know any of the languages spoken in Europe why would you demand that it should have an English explanation? If a tourist doesn't even bother to understand some of the most basic traffic signs no amount of English writing will work.
I have to take the same precautions driving here at home. Yesterday, I actually had a very difficult time driving downtown and finding a parking spot because I couldn't read the traffic signs. They were covered in snow ... but instead of simply parking on the side of the street saying "oh thats's just a scam of the city" should I get fined I drove around till I found a readible sign that did allow me to park. And in downtown Calgary it's as impossible to get out of your car to have a closer look at the signs without getting run over by the rest of the traffic as it is in Florence. Mind you, parking in Calgary is a good deal more expensive than in Florence even if you obey every single sign ....
"You seem to be forgetting Italy is a real country, it is not a historic park for tourists. It's meant for Italians."
I would be ok with that as long as Italy did not promote itself for tourism, as a park for tourists, but they do. As long as they do, they should not view tourist as sheep for the shearing, and use every trick in the book to take their money. They should treat their tourist with respect, and not exploit of their lack of knowledge of the language to take their money.
You can see a list of the traffic signs in Europe (at least those used in Germany) here. Just one more thing to worry about if renting a car in Europe. That's why taking the train is such a good idea.
However, someone posted a link here a while ago to a picture of one of the speed camera warnings (maybe here). It was written in Italian and did not have any universal symbol.
hey, why is nobody complaining about speeding tickets? because that is the risk we consciously take. we KNOW what the speed limits are, even though the signs look differently than in North America. With speed signs Italians make them visible and actually make it possible for tourists to comply. With limited area signs, it is a totally different story. It is the road authorities' responsibility to organize traffic in a way that could reasonably be complied with, including by those who visit the place for the first time. That is - if the purpose of the limitations is to ensure safe driving and limit traffic in particular areas. The Italian authorities are doing a good job if their purpose is to collect fines from tourists, but they fail spectacularly if their purpose is compliance with the rules.
Lee,
you show yourself how easy it is to find information in English that explains road signs. So do it before you drive! I googled for a couple of seconds and found this very comprehensive site for Italian road signs.
I think this link on Italian Traffic Tickets has been posted before. It also includes pictures of the speed warning sign and speed camera housing if you scroll down a bit. I don't speak Italian but it didn't take me long to figure out that "blah blah blah ... velocita" would mean something about "velocity" and since those signs always turn up with these ominous housings the logical conclusion for me is that it's a speed warning. I think it's actually quite courteous of the Italian government to mandate those camera warning signs ;-)
Of course you may argue that as a driver it's pretty hard to keep your eyes on all the new surroundings, traffic, new signs .... but the person in the passenger seat can help you as well - work as a team. And a GPS can take one more worry out of the game as well. And if you don't have a passenger? Well, then I'm with Lee: there are very few cases why renting a car as a single traveler in Italy would make sense.
I'm actually surprised how few questions are asked on this board about traffic rules in Europe BEFORE leaving. Maybe I missed it but I'm still waiting, forinstance, for a question about priority rules in unmarked intersections. Very different from country to country. I can tell you I've answered that question for German travellers going to Northamerica quite often but never here.
For those of you still fighting this...
If you rented from an "American" car company (Hertz, Avis etc...) You might try going to www.flyertalk.com and posting on the applicable board there.
I will tell you that I have read posts on there where international travelers were charged for the tickets on thier credit cards. Off the top of my head, I don't recall if it was all Europe or other "international" locations.
And to decide that "you" are the law LOL! I do think the other risk is that you are "flagged" by the rental car company. (And that does happen. My brother has a coworker who can't rent from Hertz anymore LOL!)
Wales is beautiful this time of year.
(edges toward door)
We got a couple of these tickets too. They seem wrong for the following reasons:
1. We didn't know we had violated the law because no cop stopped us and because, unlike red light camera tickets, it's not an internationally well-known violation.
2. You can get multiple violations for the same very short trip because no cop stops you.
3. The amount of the ticket is to high for a relatively non dangerous violation (compared to running a red light, for instance) and it's multiplied too greatly by the number of same violations on the same short ride.
4. The notice comes so late after the violation.
We haven't decided whether we will pay the fines. It's hard because we are very law-abiding types. In any case, we will not go back to Italy because it has left a bad taste in our mouths to receive these tickets (for the above reasons) after we spent so much on the trip. I would advise anyone going to Italy to reconsider going there, but certainly don't rent a car if you go. How shortsighted of the Italian city governments to fail to understand the problems with these tickets.
Only commenting since CeCe brought this thread up from the dead. But damn, reading all this makes me not only not want to drive in Italy, it makes me think twice about visiting Italy all together. I went to high school in a tourist town (Key West, FL), and I will say one thing good about Florida that Italy obviously hasn't picked up on....you don't bite the hand that feeds. You don't mess with tourists because it's the tourists who are in essence putting food on your table. And on a unrelated note (yes, it's late night rambling here), why are so many people ashamed of being a tourist, ex. dressing like locals, disguising the fact they are Americans, etc.? Sorry, I'm off my soapbox...for now.
"We will not go back to Italy because it has left a bad taste in our mouths to receive these tickets * * * I would advise anyone going to Italy to reconsider going there, but certainly don't rent a car if you go."
Sorry to hear about your Florence ZTL tickets. Your feelings are understandable. I wish you'd known about the Helpline before you went, because we're trying to get the word out: not a good idea to drive into the historic center of Florence.
A slightly different recommendation to offer to others would be: Go to Italy. Take the train. Even rent a car if you want to explore one of the few areas not served by train, such as Tuscany. Just don't drive into the historic center of Florence.
Andy, I'm not going to get into the morality of whether to pay or not to pay, but having lived in Italy for 2 years, trust me, they'll never catch up with you. I-oops- "accidentally" left without paying a couple tickets, and I don't fear going back at all. I have a friend who got in a car accident (while living there) about 6 years ago, it was declared partly her fault and partly the other driver's fault, but her Italian lawyer said not to worry about it as she'd be long gone before anything got to her. I talked with another person (american) married to an Italian who finally were going to court for a legal matter after 17 years. The wheels of justice-or injustice- grind very slowly in Italy.....
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