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I'm not sure what the issue is. You didn't mean to spend 45 days in Europe? The simplest way to save money on vacation is not to move, or at least limit your movement. You'd save a ton of money by only seeing a few places as to a lot of them, as transportation (regardless if it's car or train or plane) will empty your wallet more than anything else.

I'm sorry my question wasn't clear. I'm wondering the best way to do this loop with 6 then 5 people. Should we just buy train tickets, a rail pass, a rental car, or fly. Where can we camp or other places that we can cut our lodging costs? We are flexible, I don't think I can couch surf with 4 kids though. Can I rent out my home while we are gone. We live 20 minutes from Napa, 45 minutes from San Francisco, 2 hours from Lake Tahoe and 3 hours from Yosemite. My husband could just stay with my mom and check people in and out. I wonder if europeans would be interested in my 4 bedroom home. I don't want to swap, since I don't want to stay in one place. :)

Hi,

The HI (Hosteling International) hostels in Germany, England, Austria have family rooms, at least in the big cities. I've seen German families with their kids in HI hostels in Germany. Don't dismiss the idea of having dinner (a hot dinner) at the hostels, good cheap food.

Eliminate one thing at a time and see what's left.

James has the best idea.

After that work on what transportation remains. The first to go will probably be picking up the car in one country and dropping it in another after you see the premium that idea is going to toss at you.

I was about to ask how exactly one "jumps the gun" and spends several thousand dollars on airfare without doing any up-front budgeting or planning for such an expensive trip, but then I decided your post might be a load of sh _t. If this post is genuine, however, then you need to go back to the drawing board. You would be better off slashing a ton of days off of your trip, limiting the real estate you're covering to something more manageable, and paying whatever change fees your air carrier will charge to change your dates. I might recommend reading a guidebook for people who haven't traveled before – try ETBD. If you do end up going for 45 days, maybe you'll get squatters in your house...that's been a big deal on the news recently. Yikes! You don't want that!

Well, it looks to me that you're going to have to scale back on your plans. Prioritize the places you want to visit and then start removing the ones at the bottom, until you get back in budget. Skip the rental cars as much as possible and take the train, fly, and use public transportation to get around. I would focus on eliminating far flung region to tighten your circle up a little bit. Visit fewer places, but spend more time actually being there and not in transit. Self-cater and see about perhaps renting an apartment instead of going the hostel route.

1. Go to the Sacramento group meetings. When is it Andrea, Eileen?

2. Yes you can get vans in England.

3. Not only is the number of people in a car a controlling factor in size, so is luggage. You'll never get 6 (or 5) into an "economy" car if there is luggage involved.

4. What Ed said about drop charges.

5. Apartments may well be cheaper than even hostels for a large group.

6. What the others said. Travel less, stay put more.

7. Be realistic.

8. You said it, HUGE loop. Have you looked at the distances? How much do you think that would cost in fuel for your vehicle, alone? Fuel in Europe will make your California prices look like chump change. Figure on over $9 a US gallon. Expect most refueling stops to well exceed $100 US. Lots of tolls, vignettes, and then the dreaded ZTLs and their cousins elsewhere in Europe.

9. Eat nutritionally. Cutting that many corners will not make for healthy children or Mom.

10. See number 7.

11. See number 1.

And the biggest one - number 12.

12. Have you calculated that you are trying to "see" 10 countries in 45 days? With 4 kids? That's 4 and a half days for each country. Not city - country. 4 and a half days per country is you have a magic wand or flue powder. Take a day to make the journey between countries and that's 10 days off seeing the countries. What about visiting anything within those countries, or visiting more than one location? Which will you leave out - Venice, Florence or Rome? Paris or Provence or Normandy or Burgundy? London or Bath or York? Berlin or Bavaria or the Rhine Valley or Rothenburg? Vienna or Innsbruck or Salzburg?

Stacey,
As Nigel mentioned, we have a RS Helpline travel meeting each month in Sacramento. We meet on the 3rd Saturday of the month. You can find the specifics under this very same General Europe heading. Just scroll down until you find it. You will find some very experienced travelers at the meeting who can help you try to solve this dilemma. You can Private Message me if you have any questions.

I also recommend an apartment as a more economical way to save money on lodging and food costs. We can help guide you to find these accommodations. If you must drive, for a longer period you may save money by doing a lease. Picking it up and/or dropping it off outside of France can add to the cost. You will pay a big drop fee to rent in one country and drop off in another, as has already been mentioned. Be aware that in addition to the high costs of fuel, many countries have toll roads or other associated driving costs. It makes driving on our Bay Area bridges look like chump change.

Summer is the most expensive time to travel, but there are things you can do to save money.

Costs come in 5 categories. This is how you do a family on the cheap;

Airfare; (apparently already done)

Lodging; For 1-2 night stays, Hostel rooms for 6 - nothing else will be cheaper unless you go camping. Otherwise, stay long enough in one place to rent an apartment. That's usually a week, but you can occasionally find shorter terms.

Ground Transport; You're kinda stuck. Yes, there are vehicles that hold more than 5, but they cost big bucks to rent and they suck $8/gallon gas. There are multiple ways to save on train fare with children, but every country is different and it gets very complex fast. I've gotten great deals on trains, but only after many hours of research.

Food; Make your own most of the time in apartments and hostels (where allowed), otherwise do picnics and eat quick-stop food and pizzas. Don't eat anywhere there is a wait staff, sorry.

Entertainment & extras; Seek out what's free. Look onto places where children are either free or there is a steep "Family" discount (most museums). Don't go shopping and crave "stuff". Take photos instead.

There is no way you are going to do 45 days anywhere in Europe during the summer for $12,000 including airfare. Three years ago we did 35 days for about $14,000 as a family of 5 - benefitting from the lower costs in parts of Germany, Poland, etc. but even I couldn't quite duplicate that with today's airfares + general inflation. If you stick with 45 days and do everything reasonable to cut costs, you might be able to keep it to under $20,000, but even that will be tight.

When you factor airfare out of the equation, we find our other costs work out to a very consistent $300/day for 5.

I was planning on going to the Sacramento meeting but it is at the same time as my daughters sporting event.

It's $250 to change each ticket. So I'm holding off on that idea. I have Army friends in Germany who would let us crash on their couch before we became homeless.

I admit this was impulsive but that's what I'm known for. No one has died yet.

My kids want to see where I lived growing up in Germany as a military brat. They want to see some major sights but mostly they would like to meet some kids in other countries their age.

I think your comments make sense. Shorten the list. Focus on what are the most important things to our family. You can only look at so many Cathedrals, castles and museums. I'm going to research some backpacking trips.

I meet so many Europeans while I'm camping for two weeks in Yosemite each year.They all pull in for 1 night in the RV across America RV's and tell me how in 30 days they are covering 10 major vacation spots in California and Yellowstone. All of these places are normally at least a week long vacation for us. I'm always dumbfounded by how they can experience anything that way. Now I am them. And it makes sense. I may just be giving my kids a small taste of each place, but that's ok. A small taste is better than no taste at all. I googled map the entire route and saw all the toll roads and it told me the gas price. I rated it at $10 a gallon. The car plus gas plus my researched tolls, plus parking (i used Paris as an example) was still cheaper than 5 global eurail passes for 30 days.

People have already given you some sage advice, and I'll try to be not repetitive. Here are a few points I don't see made yet.
1) Reconsider your trip length, not just because of money, though that's certainly important; but because of the fatigue factor. However great your kids are, I would think they will begin to miss their friends and get cranky.

2) Don't count on being able to rent out your house. Why would anyone want to rent in Vacaville, when they can rent in the Napa Valley, Tahoe, etc.? Do a check on one of the vacation rental sites, e.g., vrbo, to see what the competition is.

3) Look into leasing a vehicle. It might be a better deal than renting. I think Peugot and Kemwel are the big players in that market, but someone here can probably be more helpful with specifics.

4) What are called "economy" cars in Europe are VERY small, and have VERY small trunks. I can't imagine spending the amount of time you propose to be driving with three kids in the back seat and the necessary gear for all of you. Don't your kids ever squabble in the car? It could get really unpleasant and wear you all down quickly.

5) Keep coming back for advice as you begin to adjust to reality. Most people here really want to help (even if we sometimes sound impatient with newbies).

No "economy" vehicle will work because you have 6. Our family of 5 always uses the smallest car available that has 5 belts. We rarely spend more than 4 hours in the car and the children get along fine. But that's not an option for you. The last time I looked into it, a 3-row-seats vehicle rented for 3x the price of an economy car.

Hiking or camping can be a fantastic experience, but it would necessitate bringing a lot more "stuff" with you. That can add a lot of complication to an already complicated trip. Be careful there. Knowing anyone you can stay with, even for just a few nights, can really save money. If it were me, I would try to organize the trip into segments that went something like this; 2-3 urban areas connected by train (buy point-to-point tickets and learn how to best take advantage of the discounts for families - don't use rail passes as they are a poor value for adults and horrible for minors who sometimes ride for free anyway), then 2-3 weeks in rural areas by car staying in at least one location for a week in a rental (two would be better) with a pool. This becomes your temporary "home" while you drive to nearby day-trips and/or hike. Then finish the trip with another 2-3 urban areas by train. That gives you contrast and keeps you out of cities with a vehicle.

Stacey,

As you've already purchased return tickets to Germany, that complicates the situation slightly. Getting to all the locations you mentioned will cost whether you're using rail, budget air or rental vehicle. Using open-jaw flights would have been a better option. I assume you're flying into Frankfurt?

As the others have mentioned (and as you've probably concluded), you'll need to reduce the number of countries you're visiting, as it won't be possible to get to all of them in a 45-day time frame. You might find it helpful to get everyone in your group to make a list of all the countries, ranked in terms of priority. Consolidate the list and then pick the top six (or so). In deciding which ones to visit, you'll also have to consider geography, and for that reason I'd probably skip Ireland, Croatia and perhaps Spain to begin with.

It would also help to have some idea which cities you plan to visit in each country, and which sights you all most want to see.

It would be more efficient to choose countries which are relatively close geographically, as it will make travel between them faster and easier. Travel by rail is going to be the least complicated method, especially in Italy where 2nd class tickets are relatively cheap. Using a rental car in Italy comes with a few "caveats", so be sure to keep that in mind.

With more specific information, I'm sure the group here and the Sacramento group will be able to help you sort this out.

Cheers!

-Thank you everyone for some great ideas. I booked a rental car from Alamo for the 45 days and it is $1500 without the additional coverages. I can not bring it into Croatia and they don't allow this size into Italy. I just looked at the lease program mentioned above. I would have to take a train to Brussels to pick it up/drop off. I can take it anywhere and it has all the insurance and is $2509.00, Diesel, and eco so it gets 40mpg.
-I also looked at an RV $6054 for the entire time. 17mpg plus camp sites and transportation into major cities.
-What is the best way to book lodging, mostly Hostels that lets you cancel with no fees up to one week prior?
-I can stay space A on military posts but they only take reservations 7 days prior if space is available. I don't want to rely on it.
-The train and public transportation idea sounds great but all of the inexpensive lodging options are hard to reach that way.
The most affordable thing I think would be 6 major cities, 1 week in each. Rent a flat and take an overnight train to each city. I just wanted more freedom.

Stacy the more moves you make the more expensive the trip, for 45 days I suggest a week in six places,, not ten.
Secondly with your schedule as is your kids won't get a chance to relax and blend a bit, very hard to meet other kids if you are literally always on the go. I should mention this too, so kids don't take it personally, but europeon kids are likely to befriend tourists , unless we are talking about wee ones at the playground.

Also with the cost of hostels , why aren't you looking at apartment rentals, you will save money by eating in, and have more privacy, hostels usually charge by the head, so even a cheap on at 25-30 euros a night times six people is still hundreds of euros a night , look at aparments. Many do have one week minimum ( but not all) is summer so this works well, plus they often have washers and dryers included.

"I should mention this too, so kids don't take it personally, but europeon kids are likely to befriend tourists" I'm going to assume Pat intended to type "unlikely". I completely agree. Although English is widely spoken amongst adults in Europe, and many kids learn it at school, they usually don't know enough to carry on a conversation until their mid to late teens. Unless your kids are fluent in the local language, don't expect a lot of meaningful interactions.

From what I understand, military lodging is very difficult to obtain if you're not traveling on orders, so you can effectively drop this idea. You could probably get rooms at Edelweis in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, but here's a secret... when I compare Edelweis's advertised rates to other non-military options in GaP, Edelweis is not very competitive.

And I agree with the others... several weeks of eating nothing but Top Ramen and oatmeal? Don't expect your kids health to hold up too well.

You aren't going until next summer, so I wouldn't jump into transportation reservations so quickly. You have plenty of time for that. I use vrbo.com and homeaway.com for apartment rentals. I think the first thing you need to do is decide on your itinerary, then start looking at lodging options. Hotels are not like in the U.S., with 2 beds in a room that you can all pile onto. They charge per person. Once you know where you are staying you can consider transportation options. As has been mentioned repeatedly, the further you go, the greater the costs.

Where are you flying into? I'm not sure why you would need to go to Brussels to pick up a leased vehicle. I leased a minivan through AutoEurope one time, picking it up in Frankfurt and dropping it off in Paris.

I hope you can join us at our meeting next month. We can sit with you and give you some real help, before you impulsively commit yourself to more expenses.

I think you've got a great attitude about traveling with your family! Don't panic. Your kids sound like great travel companions.

I support the apartment rental idea. Booking.com can give you help in researching apartments and hostels so you can compare, you don't really have to book through them, although they don't charge a fee for reserving and their cancellation policies are fair (usually a week or less is required for cancelling with no penalty). Apartments will let you have access to a kitchen and usually laundry facilities, which you'll need in 45 days of travel - doing laundromat washes at several euro per kilo adds up, too.

You should consider paring down your list of places - as it is, you'll be spending lots of time on the road. Some countries have family rates for train travel, or you could rent a car in each country to avoid drop-off charges. What if you chose a couple of countries and let your kids each choose a city? Britain, the Netherlands and France might be a good (albeit smaller) loop, maybe add Italy or Germany into the mix.

Thank you for the replies! It's like talking me off a cliff. I really need it. I can't sleep. I'm online researching constantly. My poor kids have had takeout for the past two nights. I need to come up with some kind of plan. The hard part is my husband. He has these high expectations of what he wants to see and do since he is only there for 2 weeks. He is Croatian and really wants to go there. He wants to go to what in his mind are "Manly places", like Scotland and Ireland. Since we only need the larger vehicle while he is there I was thinking of just getting plane tickets to Split (since I have 8 months to search for cheap fares) and renting an apartment for a week on the beach where we will just take the local bus around and he can look up distant relatives. Then take the ferry to Ancona, Italy and train over to Rome where we will spend the next week with him. He can then fly out and we can continue on through Italy, overnight train to France, then London, overnight ferry to Amsterdam, then finally end in Germany. My kids really want to see Granada and the Moorish influence but I can't figure out how to get there without flying. My oldest thinks we should just pack our backpacking gear, rent a car and go where the wind blows us.

Also note ,an economy car that seats 5 will most likely not have room for 5 peoples luggage( no I 'm not kidding even if you only take one small carryone each). Remember you have to keep luggage out of site too, can't leave it inside car while sightseeing must be in trunk. when you look at car rental sites you will see they show how many people and or luggage will fit.

Part of the problem is you are going to so many countries, if you stay in one country for more then 3 weeks then leasing a car is cheaper usually , my dad uses AutoEurope , so check those prices out.

"My oldest thinks we should just pack our backpacking gear, rent a car and go where the wind blows us." 30 years ago when rail passes were a good deal, yes. But because you have 6 people who are planning a trip in 2013, and you need to slim your budget, not add to it... you will need to make some hard choices on for your itinerary, and plan well in advanced.

I don't know the ages of your children, but some of them could earn money for part of their share of the trip. If you have very young children, they may qualify for free travel or entrances to museums, etc.

One advantage of hostels is that they usually provide a breakfast, often of the continental sort. The kids can pack in the food then. I would carry a jar of peanut butter and some cheese to supplement the breakfast fare. Milk, juice, coffee and bread may be what is provided by the hostel.

Years ago I had friends who camped around Europe for the summer with their young children. Of course, camping requires some equipment.

I agree with those who suggest paring down your planned itinerary. Concentrate on one or two countries, rent a car sparingly, and stay places where the kids can roam and make friends. I think Italy would be a good country for this, or Spain. If you want cooler countries, focus on the British Isles (including the Republic of Ireland). Smaller towns are typically less expensive than cities.

Hi Stacey

I may have missed you saying - when you travel next year how will the kiddiewinks be? There may be savings you can make by kiddie fares on some things as you visit.

You said that your oldest wants to drift. Is he old enough to go off on his own for a few days?

Camping may work but you should be aware that in most countries you must use proper campgrounds. You can't just stop along the road and camp.

It sounds like lots of trouble organizing all this. I bet your children will thank you for the experience as they grow up. I bet you'll have a great time...

Stacey, I like your style! You're a true adventurer.
I agree with much of what's been said here.
Here's my suggestions, and please excuse me if I'm repeating what's already been said.

If you're going with apartments, VRBO, Tripadvisor and Homeaway all have options, as well as booking.com (altho they tend to be expensive). We stay in apartments whenever we can- it saves a ton of money and also you get to see a bit more of what life is like where you're staying.

If you want to follow your son's suggestion and just 'go where the wind blows you' then camping might be a better bet. You'll need equipment, but if you stay the first few nights in a hostel, you can buy that locally and be prepared to leave it behind (or sell it) when you're done.

Check your distances between cities and countries- then you'll have a more realistic idea of just where you can get too. Maybe your older kids could do that?

You'll do this and have the time of your life! Good luck.

My kids are going to be 17g, 13g, 11b& 10g next June. We do 15 night back country backing trips so all of our gear fits in our backpack including a bear canister and 15 days of food. Take out the canister, 2 liters of water, and food we now have room for some nicer clothes.

So talked more to the kids and they just really want to go to Italy, France, Germany and Croatia.

My oldest is a lifeguards part time but is saving up for Dorm stuff since she is starting University next year.

I was thinking about looking into some type of summer camp in Europe the 2 weeks my husband is there and just doing the two weeks just the two of us.
Just a thought.

We agreed to cancel cable for the next 8 months to give us $800 toward "fun food".

Also they want to list all of thier old snowboard gear on eBay. And have a few garage sales. To do the stuff they want to do.

Another question: If we lease a minivan there isn't a trunk. How do we hide our stuff?

Stacey, it sounds like you're already getting more focused. As much as I personally like the UK? I think makes sense, in light of your husband's interest in Croatia, your wish to show your kids where you were an Army "brat" in Germany, and the kids' own preferences, to forget about crossing the Channel on this trip, and explore within the 4 countries you just mentioned.

And also, just some compassionately-intended advice from one human who can get too intensely involved with a project, to another: get UP from the computer and go outside. Leave all this alone for a day or more. And for Pete's sake, don't book ANYTHING else right now. I'll let the experienced European travelers chime in, but so far it doesn't seem like there needs to be a big rush right now to book anything - especially transportation - for next summer.

"Also they want to list all of thier old snowboard gear on eBay. And have a few garage sales. To do the stuff they want to do."

This is a refreshing change from the types of kids that have absolutely NO interest in their trip! (applause)

Definitely try to make it to our Sacramento meeting. I really think we can help, and relieve a lot of your stress!!! If you can't make it next Sat., maybe we can get together on a different date.

Breathe...;-)

"I was thinking about looking into some type of summer camp in Europe the 2 weeks my husband is there and just doing the two weeks just the two of us."

This seems guaranteed to add both expense and complexity to your plan, neither of which you need. While having time to yourselves, just the two of you, might be nice, how would you manage Croatia, for example? Your husband wants to go there, and so do your kids. If they are in camp, when do you go? And how do you find an English-speaking camp that would appeal to two teenagers and two tweens? You are better off narrowing down from what you were already considering.

Stacey i am very impressed and nicely surprised to hear how your kids are willing to contribute to trip, sacrifice , and be part of planning too, such a nice change from some posts where parents are bending over backwards to give their kids fancy trips, expect nothing from them, and don't even expect them to help with planning, and sometimes those "kids" are alot older then yours!

Mini vans have that small area behind the back bench, it has a flap that closes over it to hide things from view.