Remembrance Concert in Dresden
I will be in Dresden the week of Feb. 11 and would love to go to the Remembrance concert in the Frauenkirche Feb. 13 or 14. Of course, tickets were sold out long ago. Any suggestions for sources from which to secure a single ticket? Willing to pay commissions, surcharges, gratuities, etc.
Will
San Francisco, CA 12/2/12
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Will, good news. The concenrt "In Rememberence" is on February 15th, 2013 and there are tickets available. There are 4 seat categories: €44, €34, €24 and €12 with the latter two one only coming with limited view (so you only see half of the stage or so). The most popular category is the one for €34 per seat and that's the one that's filling up quickly now, the lady at the telephone explained to me.
So how can you book? It's a church so there is no online ticket shop. You can order your tickets by E-Mail (ticket@frauenkirche-dresden.de) or telephone. They will then issue an invoice which they'd prefer you settle by bank transfer. Alternatively you can then call them up and give them your credit card details over the phone (01149 351 6560 6701, between 9am and 6pm CET).
Success!! Thank you Andreas. I will send you a private message.
Hi James,
In answer to your question, this is from the jacket cover of the book, "Firestorm: Allied Airpower and the Destruction of Dresden" by Marshall De Bruhl:
"On February 13 and 14, 1945, three successive waves of British and U.S. aircraft rained down thousands of tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs on the largely undefended German city of Dresden. Night and day, Dresden was engulfed in a vast sea of flame, a firestorm that generated 1,500 degree temperatures and hurricane-force winds. Thousands suffocated in underground shelters where they had fled to escape the inferno above. The fierce winds pulled thousands more into the center of the firestorm, where they were incinerated. By the time the fires burned themselves out, many days later, a great city-known as "the Florence on the Elbe"--lay in ruins, and tens of thousands, almost all of them civilians, lay dead."
For a heartfelt description of Dresden's Frauenkirche, I refer you to Rick Steves' travel book, "Germany, 2012," page 602.
Will
Will,in other words, the bombing of Dresden.
The horrors of war.
" ... tens of thousands, almost all of them civilians, lay dead"
And so the Germans never targeted civilians? Remembrance means more than complaining. Perhaps they (and Rick Steves on page 602, not quoted above I understand), should remember why they were attacked.
Tens of thousands died on both sides. Maybe the idea of the Remembrance Concert is to remember what the leaders of the German people in the 20's and 30's and 40's tried to do and hopefully never be put in that position again. I don't think the free world should feel what was done was a mistake. Sad yes but necessary a double yes.
When I lived near Coventry, England I learned about Dresden.
Coventry was bombed terribly in November and December, 1940 during the Coventry Blitz. On 14 November, 1940 the beautiful and much loved St Michael's Cathedral was destroyed by fire bombs. The only surviving part was the bell tower, and the rest of the Cathedral still now stands ruined. In the 1950s a modern Cathedral was built next door keeping the same name.
The people of Coventry, having been Blitzed, understand about the firestorms unleashed in Germany by Bomber Command and the USAAF/USAF. It is said that Churchill ordered the Bomber Command destruction of Dresden as revenge for the bombing of Coventry.
After the war Coventry and Dresden pledged to help each other rebuild and have long been twinned cities (they were some of the originals) with Coventry having recently given the gold cross placed atop the Dresden Cathedral.
Both cities are strongly anti-war.
They both have a Cross of Nails, the original being formed the day after the bombing of Coventry Cathedral by the stonemason of the Cathedral who found three medieval nails in the smoking ruins and tied them together as a cross. The Dresden one was a gift from Coventry.
The inscription on St Michaels now reads "Father Forgive"
'Tens of thousands died on both sides.'
Tens of millions if you count both sides in both theaters.
What tore Churchill up about Coventry was that the had to let it get tubed. The Bletchley crowd was reading Enigma, Churchill knew it was coming, but couldn't react without giving away the fact that he was reading mail.
War sucks.
Indeed, Ed.
I suggest everyone read, and re-read, Nigel's post.
"It is said" that Churchill's motive for approving the Dresden operation was to placate the Russians since the attack happened right after the Yalta Conference had concluded.
Good post Nigel on both Dresden and Coventry.
I was also in that synagogue in Prague where all the names of the Jewish people killed were listed on the walls. Not only were they listed on the walls, but there being spoken aloud. It was so moving to see this and remember those murdered.
Questioning a remembrance concert in Dresden is no different than questioning a remembrance event in Hiroshima. These kinds of events are still important today for many reasons.
First, thank you to all who have posted either advice (gratefully accepted) or offered personal insights about remembrance events or memorials. I have never been to an actual remembrance event, but as Beatrix said, there are multiple reasons for them, and I presume the main ones are to remember, to forgive/heal, and to reaffirm a determination to prevent a reoccurrence. This is what I'm anticipating at the Frauenkirche in Dresden. And besides, they are performing Mozart's Great Mass in C Minor which I have never heard live :-)
James, thank you for your offer of assistance. As it turns out, the B&B I'll be staying at looks like it's only about a five minute walk to the plaque shown in your link, so of course I will see it.
My itinerary is based almost solely on opera, symphony, and the performing arts, and a desire to settle in and become more than a tourist: 17 days in Vienna with a side-trip to Salzburg, 5 days in Prague, a week in Dresden/Leipzig, and the rest of the time split between Berlin and Frankfurt. I'm sharing this because although my evening concert slate is full (or at least with all that I can afford), my days are empty. It sounds like at least several of you have knowledge of travel in these cities, and as a person who speaks neither Czech nor German, I welcome your advice and recommendations for filling the days. Thanks so much...
Will
As an American Jew living in Germany I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Nazis getting their asses stomped at the end of the war, yet even I can understand the horror of the Dresden firebombing, which did not have much military or strategic value, and seemed designed as retribution for previous Axis attacks, and primarily attacked the center of the city (not the industrial suburbs) to destroy it's cultural heritage and you know, kill a ton of civilians. It's pretty hard to justify, period, and certainly easy to see why a remembrance concert would be held.
It's also worthwhile to distinguish people from their governments, particularly those who live in fascist regimes where people are kept in line via fear and brutality. Yes, the civilian population of Germany of that time bears some responsibility for allowing the Nazi Regime to take and hold power, absolutely, but that doesn't mean it's not horrific when civilians are deliberately targeted, nor does it mean that destruction cannot be memorialized.
There isn't a city in Germany without many memorials to Holocaust victims, but it's reasonable to have memorials to everyone who was killed because of war as well.
Will - what are your interests outside of music? Not speaking German or Czech won't be a problem for your trip.
Thanks Sarah. Those are my sentiments as well, but you expressed them far better than I could have.
Except for Prague, I have spent time in all the cities named, especially Berlin. So in Prague I will want to see the major sites which are all adequately covered in the travel books. My goal for this trip is to blend into the culture as much as possible. For instance, instead of just touring the major operas houses to actually attend an opera in them. I'll be looking for small restaurants or coffee shops to return to day after day in hopes of getting to know some people on a first name basis, and in Vienna take some dance lessons in preparation for a formal ball. For the most part, I'll be skipping major museums and cathedrals, but after reading the posts here find that I'm sorely lacking in exploring the Jewish side, sites, and influence. This seems like the right time for that.
I have never been to your city of Stuttgart, a city I've wanted to see. It won't be on this trip, but maybe during the summer:-)
Will,
if you are able to spend more time in Leipzig there are a lot of things to do, especially for a music lover. Here's a link to an earlier discussion on the helpline. Don't hesitate to ask more specific questions:
http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm/rurl/topic/80632/should-i-go-to-bachfest-leipzig.html
"It's pretty hard to justify, period,"
Sarah:
The firebombing of Dresden Horrific? YES
Justifiable? That's not your judgement to make.
Basic tenet of war: Destroy both the willingness and the ability of the other side to fight.
In the Pacific, ability started to plumet at Midway and by Okinawa there was nothing left but desperation, however, the fight went on. When a couple of nukes were pickled, willingness went down the tubes and the war ended.
In Europe, Stalingrad and Normandy argueably destroyed the ability. Dresden destroyed the willingess and the war ended.
Hard decisions.
War sucks.
>"Dresden destroyed the willingess and the war ended."
It neither destroyed the willingness nor did the war end because of Dresden. The moral bombing had no effect on the willingness of the Germans, it could be argued that the opposite was true. Or did the bombing of London or Coventry destroy the willingness of the Brits? Dresden was also just the last of many destroyed cities. The loss of Frankfurt, Nuremberg, Cologne or Braunschweig was equally bad.
And the war ended because 1 million Russians stood at the gates of Berlin.
Um, Elaine, I can make that determination as a person who has the ability to decide for myself what I think is right or moral about things that happened in history. It's called having an opinion.
I agree with Ed and Martin's take. There's scant historical evidence that the firebombing of Dresden contributed to the end of the war or stopped the progress of the Holocaust (something that Allied forces didn't really bother to try to stop with bombs on train tracks when they did have the ability, by the by) so for me it's something that's hard to justify as a student of history. Obviously Bomber Harris disagreed.
True that when the Dresden bombing took place one million Russians did stand on the Oder 30 miles from Berlin, and the West had yet to cross the Rhine: for the Btitish not until Wesel am Rhein. (The Prussian Museum is located there)
Both Coventry and Dresden were conceived as horrific terror attacks but by the time of Dresden the "killing factor" had become greater. Good that both cities share a common bond now.
The American air chiefs disagreed with Bomber Harris I'm glad to say.
Just to chime in about the Stolper Stein or Stumble Stones. The information you posted, James, is woefully incorrect.
There are presently over 35,000 of these and the majority of them are in Germany. There are a few in Poland, Austria and the Netherlands. Anyone can sponsor and pay for a Stolper Stein to be installed, it does not have to a member of a surviving family. They are installed in the sidewalks in front of where the people lived. You also do not have to be Jewish to have one of these, they are for anyone who was murdered by the nazis - Homosexuals, Jehova Witnesses, Roma & Sinti, all those who were euthonized in the T-4 Program, and anyone who was considered a traitor.
James, we already had a thread about who we are and how old we are, though honestly I don't see why it makes a difference.
For those visiting Frankfurt, do make time to see the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Wall, with the names of the 12,000 Jewish citizens of Frankfurt who were killed. There is also a Homosexual Memorial, a Jehovah Witness Memorial, and in the main cemetery, memorials to the Slave Laborers, the Roma & Sinti, and the victims of "scientific" experimentation.
The original intent of this post, to secure a ticket to the Remembrance Concert, was achieved with stunning success--in less than 12 hours. To see/hear Mozart's Great Mass in such a monumental building with such a humanitarian purpose will indeed be a highlight of my trip. More than this, though, have been helpful insights to things that I, and perhaps many travelers, might otherwise have missed. I'm referring specifically to the Stumble Stones for which James provided a link. Things like this, small and discreet and not necessarily tourist destinations, though in their own way just as profound, are what give a travel adventure individuality and depth.
I will respond by private message to others who have offered suggestions and advice.
By the way, I'm 69, traveling alone, and have to admit that I'm somewhat scared. But then, people far older than I have done it...
Will
Jo, the last count that I was aware of was something in the neighborhood 20,000, but if it's gone up to 35,000 that's fantastic. I understand that they can be found in nearly 500 cities across Germany; also fantastic. To my knowledge they can be found in Austria, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Belgium, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy, Poland, and France. You might be correct in that most are located in Germany as that is where the project began. My assumption is that not many went through the trouble to place memorials for people they never heard of, so I would expect fewer stones (unfortunately) where the final solution was done most effectively. More than half of the Jewish population in Germany had left the country before the worst of the killings began so that might mean more survivor families and friends to want the stones placed. But granted, that's pretty subjective on my part. The rest of your comments about who the stones are for is correct and is the first thing you read when you open the link I posted.
http://www.stolpersteine.com/index_EN.html
Will,
Scared? Don't be. People are people no matter where you go and my general impression of the world is that people are basically good. Go have a wonderful time. Wish I could be with you. Tell you what. Keep my name or a link to this thread handy and if you should decide to take another brave trip come and by my guest in Budapest. I've got an apartment i can put you in for four or five nights - no charge. Yes, i feel a little guilty for stiring the muck.
I should think the spirit of the Remembrance Concert is similar to the Hiroshima memorials held each year on August 6. We attended in 1987 and were among the very few Americans there. The Memorial Park and the ceremonies were very moving. There was no anti-Americanism; just a spirit of of sorrow for the past and commitment to peace in the future.
As to some of the other comments in this thread. . . history is more complex than you've been taught in school. German governments of the '20's? That would be the Weimar Republic, Germany's first attempt at democracy. The insistence of the WW I victors that the new regime pay the reparations levied against the losers resulted in unimaginable suffering, in addition to the horrors of the four years of war just past. The fledgling democracy was undermined, leading to the rise of fascism. Yes, there was a substratum of anti-Semitism; but the French, British, and Americans were guilty of that, too. Those who want to condemn the German people so completely should remember that the U.S. government refused asylum to Jewish refugees, some sitting on boats a few miles off our shores, whose lives could have been saved. The book, While 6 Million Died, will open your eyes to just how indifferent the Allies were to the plight of European Jewry.
Dresden was February. Berlin was April. VE Day was May.
The war was effectively over before the Battle of Berlin.
The non-Russians didn't even want to play since the partition of Germany has already been decided and Berlin was going to be in the Russian sector (Yalta, February). Numbers favored the Germans since the Russians didn't have anything close to the three-to-one superiority normally considered necessary for an attacking force. Thus, both numbers and terrain favored the defender.
Peace feelers had been out since before Christmas and by March envoys were scurrying around in earnest.
By early March, Americans had already been planning the shifting of forces to the Pacific.
For a travel forum this might have gotten a little off track. Still I am amazed and pleased at the entire tone of the discussion. It says a lot about the quality of the character of the forum participants. Sure there was a fair degree of disagreement but it was polite and reasoned. Actually a pretty healthy discussion.
Too often there will be individuals in a discussion like this that resort to simple minded name calling for lack of coherent thought. It was refreshing to see that this group is above that and I am proud to be part of it; even if I disagree with some or a lot of what I read.
All that having been said, maybe this went a little too far off track tor a RS travel forum so later tonight or maybe tomorrow morning I will pull my contributions (except the offer to the poster) to show Mr. S. a little respect for what he has built here for us to use, learn from and participate in.
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