helping fellow travelers, unsolicited advice and the RS Helpline
I have a question for other "senior" contributors to the Rick Steves' Traveler Helpline (aka, this site).
My main motivation to come here often and write is to help fellow travelers to have a good time in Europe and share knowledge/information that can be helpful. I think this is what drive most people here as well.
Often, I encounter the issue of fellow travelers asking a certain question, and then having to decide whether I will "chime in" with additional unsolicited advice or saying they are asking they wrong questions. I'm not sure whether I'm helping them or not.
Typical case is the person asking about how to use a rail pass on itineraries where a pass is clearly a money-losing proposition. I often answer "avoid buying the pass" unless there is info on the OP that a pass has been already purchased.
Same goes for really unworkable itineraries like 2 days in London, 1 1/12 in Paris, an en-route stop in Koln while we head for another 2 days in Berlin before flying to Sartorini, Barcelona and finally Dublin. I usually urge people to reconsider those itineraries.
I've got several Personal Messages saying I'm not being helpful by not answering OPs directly but putting more "confusion" on their heads instead of helping them.
So should me (we) just answer the objective questions ignoring big red flags lurking around a misuse of rail pass, or a gross underestimation or driving time, or an unworkable itinerary or train connections etc?
Andre L.
Tilburg, Netherlands 1/29/13
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It's an advice board. There's no such thing as "unsolicited advice" really if you're asking for advice.
I think the question is more how do contributors separate out very personal opinions based on personality, travel preferences, etc from actual general opinion/advice that would be helpful to most people or specifically to the person asking the question?
Also terseness is not rudeness. Rudeness is insulting or demeaning somebody. Saying, "Sorry, but your itinerary is kind of nuts" isn't really rude in my book. Saying "Your itinerary is ridiculous because you're an ignorant idiot," would be.
and this:
"This is one of the most polite and well-behaved forums on the internet (one of the reasons I waste so much time here). If people can get upset on THIS forum because they don't like receiving unsolicited advice from a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers... then God help them in the rest of their endeavors."
Is 100% correct. Honestly some questioners come on here with stuff they could have easily googled, expecting others to do the legwork research for them, and then respond angrily when someone tells them something they don't like. That is really rude, actually.
Well, Andre, you have a knack for introducing interesting, thought-provoking topics.
As for the kind of advice we give regarding questions about seeing Rome or Paris in a day or a day and a half, it literally breaks my heart to think about it, but if that's the only amount of time someone has on the trip they're planning, a day in Paris or Rome is better than none. Hopefully they'll go back.
Like several people who have posted, I stayed away from this site for months because of a criticism I got from a multi-thousand poster. I came back because this is, in my opinion, the best place to get advice based on peoples' travel experience. Most of the time.
Sarah bring up a very good point. We have had some new posters who come on here, ask us to basically plan their entire trips, look up their train schedules, tell them all the costs, estimate what money they should bring,and plan their day to day itineraries,, and then , while many do go to great lengths to help them, googling things like freaking weather in Spain in April for them etc,, they don't even say thanks,, they sometimes don't even respond, I find it super rude actually, keeping in mind this is a volunteer helpline, not a professional travel agency.
And its true, if you ask for opinions, input or advice, then what you get is not really unsolicted is it? Especially when people ask for "opinions",, which some do, so what if you get some you don't like, take what you like and move on, I am not into people getting all offended and hurt by some opinions.. its not the same as calling someone an idiot when you say " I would never do that plan it sounds exhausting " .. that is an opinion, but saying " doing it that way is stupid" is rude..
I do try and acknowledge people have different travel styles , so what works for them may be 10 places in 20 days, but I have no problem saying it would exhaust me and I would find it onerous keeping to that pace.
Absolutely agree with Sarah and Pat. If those I must say ignorant "askers" would look just at Favorite Links on Travelers Helpline website sometimes all their questions are answered right there. And then there is google.
As for unsolicited advice: yes, few times I noticed it here. For example somebody is asking about Bratislava and some of the answers was: Did you think about Budapest? It's not that far. So that I would consider unsolicited advice.
There are five kinds of unsolicited advice. Four suck and the person giving any one of them should spend the afternoon on a dunking stool.
1. Andre's kind: where the person asked a question but didn't understand the implications or was clearly headed toward a pitfall. Closely related is the reply to the effect that 'as long as you're going by there, did you know that this exists?'
2. The own-agenda kind: How to I drive from A to B? Take the train! or I don't like art museums, what should I do with a spare afternoon in Paris? Not to spend it at the Louvre whould be a sin!
3. The busy-body kind: How can I entertain my kids in London? Leave them home!
4. The really stupid kind: What about . . . ? I don't know, but I just googled this . . . .!
5. The utterly stupid kind: What do you know about this hotel? Nothing, but have you checked This Website?
"4. The really stupid kind: What about . . . ? I don't know, but I just googled this . . . .!" But if we remember, the guy who was responsible for hundreds (thousands?) of those types of answers would never preface anything with "I don't know." Hell, often he wouldn't even claim he googled it, he would just copy and paste it and pretend he wrote it.
@Zoe.. glad you decided to return and ignore the rude poster... I have enjoyed your advice and insight...
I think the best reply here is "If people can get upset on THIS forum because they don't like receiving unsolicited advice from a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers ... then God help them in the rest of their endeavors".
At the Traveler's Helpline in this website, the webmaster provided rules (or commandments or decrees or directives or edicts or fiats or precepts or interdictions or proscriptions) to all persons posting a question or reply at The Traveler's Helpline. It can be read at this website. In each section of The Traveler's Helpline, on the page on which is the list of all discussion threads that were posted, below the words "General Europe" (in big blue letters) or the title of an other section of The Traveler's Helpline, is the words (in very small black letters) : "before you post, read our Community Guidelines". Click on the words "Community Guidelines" (blue or red letters).
The use of the term "senior" contributors in this question caught my eye. I would like to add that we should all be aware that terms like "senior", "regulars", "frequent posters", and other such terms are really quite meaningless in determining the value of the advice given. A high post count could possibly mean that the person has posted thousands of bits of fantastic advice. It could also mean that the person is simply very chatty and enjoys adding two cents' worth in a discussion, regardless of whether it is relevant to a travel question. It could mean only that the person has a great deal of free time to spend on the internet. There are many posters with high post counts here who do give a lot of fine advice, but there are also some who rarely contribute anything other than snide remarks. Then there are some who rarely post but who contribute some valuable insight when they do.
Perhaps my remarks are a bit off the direct topic. I may have interpreted it incorrectly, but it just seemed to me that the question, being directed to "senior" contributors, implies a false division between those who contribute a lot and therefore are presumed to be expert and those who are new to travel.
Love that insight from D.D.!
As to unsolicited advice, there's the recent topic "Traveling with a large family" in which the OP included gratuitous information so provocative that I'm not surprised it sparked some ancillary comment. (I could go on for paragraphs about the situation as disclosed in the original and subsequent posts. But by a terrific effort of will, I won't.)
Kudos to everyone here who somehow manages to keep on point. People can be so wildly assorted and unpredictable, and sometimes much more interesting than "should I reserve seats on the train from Grubbing-under-Trestle to York and is there a luggage rack on that service?" However, IMO the overall standards of this discussion forum mean that even a neurotic snotty Nebraskan should have her travel questions answered, while people politely ignore, as much as possible, the background human interest stuff.
Suz, nicely said. As a Canadian I was loathe to say what you expressed about a certain mommy in Nebraska.
Andre, I have both offered information on here and received a lot of very valuable help. I've also learned good things from answers that might have strayed a bit from the original question.
So Thank you to you and everyone on here! Give yourselves a pat on the back and if the odd person doesn't find the generous advice here helpful, well, they're free to go somewhere else, aren't they?!
How many of us wanted to respond to the above referenced thread, but heaved a heavy sigh and tried to be nice? I only did it about 20 times. And just how nice was I if I'm bringing it up now?
"How many of us wanted to respond to the above referenced thread, but heaved a heavy sigh and tried to be nice?"
Quite a few of us I'd say. To borrow Suz's phrase, by a terrific effort of will I resisted. Wasn't easy though. I was astounded by the op.
I disagree with most of you, I think the above referenced thread is a perfect example of Andre's question. That woman came looking for travel advice and yet certain people couldn't resist making comments about how her and her husband chose to raise their kids. Unsolicited advice that pertains to travel is fine but unsolicited advice about people's private lives is unacceptable and uncalled for. That she responded the way she did is not surprising, I would have done the same if someone I didn't know presumed to lecture me on how to raise my kids.
How would the board as a whole have responded if a 40 yr old woman said that she and 5 other women were going to Europe. They were terrified of crime, even neurotic, and wanted to all stay in the same room, and would only go to the restroom in pairs. Would we have humored her and given her the names of sextuplet rooms, or would we have tried to get her to lighten up and stop the paranoia? Which, by the way, is in the spirit of RS. One reason he is so successful is the gentle confidence and encouragement he gives.
I think she got much less response than she would have without this thread running concurrently.
I think there are gentler, kinder ways to explain that normally, parents with grown children do not need to stay in the same room while traveling to be safe. And yes, any person over 18 is an adult, unless there are health issues to be considered.
This is a mother who has safety issues of her own, who has probably never traveled to Europe and has read all the pick-pocket & scam warnings over on the Graffiti Wall. She has translated that to mean that Europe is crime-ridden and a scary, dangerous place to be, and passed those same fears onto her daughters.
There were probably better ways to have let her know that she could rest easy and go ahead and book separate rooms for her daughters.
Sometimes some of us on this board who have traveled or lived overseas need to remember that traveling to a foreign country where you don't speak the language and don't know the customs, etc. can be scary for a lot of people, especially the first time.
@Karen... 'gentle confidence and encouragement'... perfect.
Great mantra for raising children ... or for encouraging anyone who has fears
about foreign travel.
I almost always avoid itinerary questions - mostly because I don't want to rain on people's parade (and because there are plenty of other contributors here who are more than willing to rain on someone's parade).
I try to answer specific questions where I have some specific experience that might help. I have a travel style that works for me. My style has changed somewhat over time and, I'm sure, will continue to evolve. I try to remember that everyone doesn't have to use (or even like) my travel techniques.
The PMs I get are usually to ask even more specific questions. I don't get too many negative PMs about my posts (until now?) so I must not be doing too bad.
Since I am poster in question , all I have to say is you have no idea how deep and bizarre this ladies fears were. She pmed me and told me I knew "nothing about crime since you are from good ole Canada"( direct quote) . She then proceeded to educate me about "kidnapping, rape " and "white slavery". Her fears were way beyond listening to "gentle encouragement". Her"children" were not handicapped, in fact she made it clear her 23 yr old was studying for her doctorate, so I would also assume not too immature either.. but her fears were off the scale comapared to anything I have seen on this or other forums.. Questions about safety are not unusual, we have all seen them before, and usually posters are relieved when assured just keeping an eye on their stuff should be enough. But this lady had very strong preconcieved ideas and was not dissuaded my any of the posts, including the "gentle ones".. in fact her ignorance about her neighbors to the north was stunning..( we have no crime in Canada??).
So yes, I went over the line, but to no avail, this lady still beleives she is taking her children into some sort of crimminal hotspot and that her daughters personal safety was at great risk.. and parents like me evidently just don't love thier kids.. I didn't know about the white slavery problem in London, Paris and Cinque Terra but glad this lady is on guard for it.
"That woman came looking for travel advice and yet certain people couldn't resist making comments about how her and her husband chose to raise their kids"
Rik, I agree with you totally.
"the OP included gratuitous information so provocative that I'm not surprised it sparked some ancillary comment"
That is the point. The op is the one who changed it from the usual asking of a travel question when she unnecessarily included very bizarre information. For a mother to refer to her 4 adult children as "semi-adult" and wants them all to sleep together says a lot about this woman... it's not as simple as being fearful of crime in an unknown place... there is something psychologically wrong with her.
The op chose to post this gratuitous, personal info. Obviously because she thinks her behavior is normal... it is not.
Because it is not normal, people should not ignore it. I think anyone that called her out on it did the right thing - however way they did it.
Yes, Susan,
you are very right. She obviously suffers from paranoia maybe even paranoid schizophrenia but that would have to be diagnosed by psychiatrist.
Perhaps the Yenta Patrol should chill out. The OP in question initially took the time to post on 1/31 thanking people for giving her some constructive advice and thanking those who chose not to act like they knew how better to parent her children (adult, semi-adult, whatever... does it really matter if they aren't yours to begin with?). It could have just ended there, but the Yentas had to pipe up with a litany of reasons why this woman was a crappy mother.
I've noticed the majority of the threads started about "safety" seem to come from people who don't live in large metropolitan areas (this woman was from Nebraska!). Is it really so strange that someone who probably lives out in the middle of some prairie and whose children haven't traveled extensively (abroad or within the United States) might view the city as a place where bad things happen? Is that perception accurate? Not really. Plenty of bad things happen in the suburbs and the country, too. They just don't get as much media coverage. And who would have sat through "Taken" or "Taken 2" with Liam Neeson if he had been running around Nebraskan wheat fields chasing after the guys who kidnapped his daughter to sell her into white slavery (ummm...no one!)?
The worst advice she got was to go rent an apartment. I don't typically advocate hostel stays for 6 adults, but instead of pointing out how she might be a crazy paranoid schitzo, why not plug the hostel as a way for her (and her "kids") to see just how many other 18-25 year olds there are safely traveling about Europe solo or in pairs? It would have been a way for the semi-adults to talk to their peers about what it's like to get out there and see that all is not evil, doom and gloom.
While I agree that a hostel stay may have helped open OPs or at least OPs childrens eyes, I do not agree that the worst advice was to rent an apartment.. I think thats a bit like the pot calling the kettle black just pronouncing someone ( actually mulitple posters ) advice as the worst.. It was not, if looking at it from a economy point of view an apartment makes a lot more sense then six adults paying the per person rate at a hostel.
So see , while I do not agree with all of your post, I can see some of the good.
I do not recall telling anyone else that their advice was the "worst ever" ..
Thank you Ilja and Ceidleh.
Frankly, I'm going to respond to what an OP says, and that includes information that isn't relevant to their travel question if I think I have advice that will be helpful is listened to. Some see that as overstepping, but if OPs don't want commentary on a subject, they shouldn't include it in their post.
That said, I try to keep my unsolicited advice relevant. I pointed out that the places she's visiting are perfectly safe, which is true and if taken in the spirit it was offered, should be a relief to the OP, not the source of more frustration, and gave her the very good advice that being overprotective and spending too much 'family time' together 100% of the time while traveling as an adult family group can often lead to more stress and fighting. Nothing about her parenting skills, just some actual travel advice from someone who's been there (with the overprotective parents, that is).
I'm confused. I just read through that thread about the large family and didn't see any posts that were inappropriate to me. Did some of them get deleted by the webmaster? It seemed to me that the OP kept bringing up her thanks for not offering parenting advice, which is odd. But not so odd if people had been commenting on it.
I thought her opening post was benign. A bit TMI about the children being neurotic and sharing trips to the restroom (though many ladies do this). But every post I read seemed to try and reassure her that there was little reason for them to feel unsafe. And Pat's post here about her PM suggests the OP is either quite neurotic or a troll.
Which leads me to wonder how many OP's are really just trolls hoping to get a rise out of us. It seems rare but still I sometimes read a thread and wonder. In those cases, I ignore it and try not to bite...
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