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You should really consider flying into one city and flying out of another. You are all over the map, and this is going to cost you money. Pull out a map of Europe and see if you can find a more logical way, moving in one direction.

Fly into London, and when you are done there, train to Paris, from there move on to Amsterdam. Train into Germany from Amsterdam and then move on to Italy. Spain is your outlier if you want to spend lots of time in Germany. You might consider dropping it. Fly home from Italy.

Stacey,

I don't have time this afternoon to go through this in detail, but my initial impression is that there's still too many places in the mix and too much travel, which will require both time and money.

I'd suggest either skipping the one night stops or adding another day to each. It will take about half a day each to travel from Venice to Verona and Verona to Cinque Terre. You'll only have one afternoon in each place to tour and then you'll be on the train again in the morning. I'm not sure it will be worth the effort. You might consider deleting "That Place" to allow more time for others.

I agree with the previous comments that using open-jaw flights would be the best idea.

Good luck with your planning!

Stacey - if I am not mistaken, haven't you already purchased the USA/Germany portion of your ticket and it is non-refundable. That would make an open-jaw ticket from the US to/and from Germany unavailable. Or am I wrong about the ticket already being set in stone? You could still to open-jaw tickets on your other flights within Europe.

Still too many places and moving around. So you will train to Venice from Rome and stay two nights. That is one day there. Train to Verona and out again the next day to CT. Leave CT the next day, and on to Milan. One full day in Milan. When are you going to see anything in Verona or the CT? Fly to Madrid to only spend one full day there before moving on again. You really need to look at the actual travel times between these places, and what times the trains leave each place. I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. Every time you change locations you are losing at least half a day just to the details of moving - packing, unpacking, finding your way to your hotel and back to the train station, waiting for the train, airport security check-in times. You will much happier if you cut out places so you can see something in the places you do visit.

Warning: Spain in summer is very hot. Think of the Central Valley but with little air conditioning.

Hi,

Where do you plan on taking the ferry to Amsterdam or close to it? The only one I know going to that area departs from Newcastle. Or, are you going from London to Lille on the Euro Star, then by train to Amsterdam?

I would cut out Spain all together and do a "Figure 8" loop in and out of Germany, since you are stuck with those non refundable tickets. I would also skip the flight to Rome and train down to Verona, then Venice, then Rome. From there head North through CT (but stay 2 nights here for a full day of hiking), then Milan and then head further North into France, Paris, then London. Then you complete the top loop by going to Amsterdam and back to Germany. You could easily fill in the time you cut out of Spain with that route and it makes more logistical sense. You would be passing through Austria, Switzerland, French Riviera, Tuscany, Provence, Bavaria, and others that could easily fill up your 45 days. Above all, I would avoid airports and security screening with the kids. Train stations with kids is much easier.

I can only comment on your 45 days. They probably won't be carefree. We have taken three 45 day journeys in Europe. No kids, they are grown and the pets have died. 45 day trips are tiring, very tiring and we always come back with some sort to cold or flu.

You have my best wishes and good luck to you.

A 45 day trip is a very long, fabulous opportunity to see Europe. Slow down and enjoy it more. We have found that a minimum of 3 nights is perfect, more for bigger cities, maybe 2 nights if you are in a small town without much going on. It adds stress, money and you may not even remember what you saw if you move too fast. Just one opinion.

My first recommendation is that you aren't really accounting for the length of time it takes to actually *do* all of that train travel from one place to another, so when you say train to X, stay one night, you really aren't allowing any time to see and enjoy X.

If it were me, I would slow down, spend at least 2 nights (probably 3) or more in each location, and also reduce the complexity of your itinerary. I agree with other posters that the leg to Spain seems too far outside your core itinerary. (and Spain is my favorite!)

Stacey,

I can't remember all the details of your previous Thread. Could you confirm whether you've already bought return tickets to Frankfurt?

As myself and others have mentioned, this version of your Itinerary still seems rather "ambitious". Which of the destinations you've listed would you be willing to skip? As someone else mentioned, Spain seems to be the outlier.

Good luck!

Hello!
I was really hoping for ideas about people's favorite things to do or favorite places to stay. The post that goes something like, "while on the train to Venice we stopped in xyz village and had lunch at this little cafe. The owner was out of an old movie and it was the most memorable part of our trip." Or "My teenager just loved xyz in Germany, you just have to do it!"

As a recap... I have non-refundable round rip tickets into Germany. I purchased on impulse. You know Carpe Diem! In trying to please my husband we are flying to Rome, where he is spending two weeks with us. The cost of the r/t ticket plus his 2 one ways from Italy to Germany I feel good about, plus it's an 1 1/2 hour flight, his commute to work is longer than that. When I booked these r/t tickets I was planning on just doing Northern Europe for his 2 week jaunt. Then he started making "requests". So Italy with him, that's why the cramming in of stuff there. 45 days is a lot of time = a lot of money. So people suggested I pay the fee of $250 per ticket ($1000) to come back early. So I decided, I have 45 days and I am going to see what I want to see. If I have to crawl to Granada, I am going there. It's my splurge. I'll camp 5 nights to recoup the travel cost. It's the only thing I am dying to see. The rest of the trip after Granada is total based on the cheapest flight out of there. Then the cheapest flight from there. Or Train. I don't think it matters much. Just that we see something new each day. In the Army you can operate a deadly weapon with only 4 hours sleep a night for 2 weeks. While on vacation my motto is you'll sleep for free at home. We go from 5am till 10pm with kids and 7am till 2am without. Plus all that travel time can be used to catch up on sleep :)

Fred-
For 39£ you can take the train from London to the coast then overnight ferry to the Netherlands then train to Amsterdam. You have to pay for your sleeping accommodation also on the ferry if u want. It's a 12 hour ordeal but when you have 15 more days than money it's worth it. :)
They also offer it from London to Dublin.

That must be from Harwich? Good that you reserved the connection.

"plus it's an 1 1/2 hour flight, his commute to work is longer than that." Here I see what might be part of the problem. You need to consider not just the actual transit time but how long it takes to check out of a hotel, get to the train station/airport (and check in and wait if its an airport), then complete all the same steps in reverse order on the destination end. And add a little time to become oriented to your new surroundings. For a 90 minute flight, you can easily add 3-4 hours prior to the plane lifting off, and add 90 minutes- 2 hours on the destination end. So, it's not just the 90 minute flight to get from point A to point B, more realistically it's a process that takes about 6-7 hours.

I haven't read other information on your trip from other posts, only what you've provided here. I suggest you immediately take a hopper to Rome from where ever in Germany you're landing from your country of origin. You don't say what time of year you're traveling. Darkness comes early in winter, so you won't get a good feel for Frankfurt or Munich or Berlin, if you are coming downtown from the airport, etc. if you're only there in the dark for one night. This way you'll gain a full day in Rome. Also, I have to assume you have a travel day in between each of the 2 or 1 night stays. If not, you could get behind schedule quickly if the Italian train system goes on strike or you miss a train or something unforeseen happens. Just last week I was to take a train from Germany to Geneva, due to a problem with the tracks, they cancelled the morning trains and we all piled into an afternoon train, 5 hours later. Definitely fly from Madrid to Paris, it's a long, long train ride. You'll save time and money to fly from London to Amsterdam too. Lastly, you could just rent a car in Amsterdam and drive to where you want to go in Germany, it's only a few hours to the border. I think to better help with activities to recommend, it's important to know what time of year you're going. Skiing or christmasmarkets or summer festivals, etc. in different towns are fun.

Stacey, glad to see you've whittled down your list. I agree, do what you want (clearly that involves Spain on this trip), but another poster made a lot of sense about unexpected delays. I try to avoid one-night stays because so much can go wrong on the way there. The often-repeated comment that two nights is really one day actually depends on where you are going - the train to Venice from Rome is 4 hours, so if you leave at a reasonable hour in the morning, and there are no delays, you'll have at least a few hours the day that you arrive in Venice, and that's a great time to give yourselves an orientation tour of the city (keep the hotel's map handy and remember the vaporetto stop). Keep in mind that many museums are closed on Mondays, so if that's your only day in a city, you may not see something you really want to see.

I'm looking forward to your trip report!

For 39£ you can take the train from London to the coast then overnight ferry to the Netherlands then train to Amsterdam. You have to pay for your sleeping accommodation also on the ferry if u want. It's a 12 hour ordeal

For £22.99 per person you can fly Easyjet from Southend to Amsterdam. Flight time 1 hour 15.

I haven't seen your other posts but I was wondering, from one large family to another, have you booked any lodging yet? I've been the better part of two months booking lodging for our 35 days in Switzerland next summer. We're a family of 5 and its really hard to find places where we don't have to pay for two hotel rooms. Most european hotel rooms only hold a max of 3 people so its been many emails back and forth to hotels trying to find a reasonable place to stay that can hold us all in one room (and at times, we're still in two connecting rooms which raises the price dramatically).

Kathy- we will be there in the summer and we have 24 hours in Germany. Just so my husband can have a meal and get a tiny taste of Germany.

Nigel- yes it is cheaper and faster but is it overnight on a ferry? It is one less night of lodging plus an experience unlike in the USA.

Tom- I am flying 4 times in 45 days. I' not to concerned about travel times, if we get to see an entirely new culture in 6 hours. For $60 each. Please try that from the US. For $60 each I can maybe get a 1 way ticket to Las Vegas.

Joanne- trust me all I do is look at lodging and the logistics of it. In some cities it is cheaper to book 2 rooms, in some they have 1 room, in some an apartment is better, in some a family room in a hostel is better, and in some places camping is a better option.

Since everyone mentions the low cost of easy jet. Has anyone actually booked low cost 20€ tickets for 5-6 people at a time? For where they want to go and on the day they want to go? Booking 5-6 tickets is not an easy thing with low advertised rates with most carriers. It's usually just so many seats at that price.

Stacey,

I know you think people are coming down on you for your plan but it sounds as if you have never traveled to Europe as a large family. I know that you lived there as a child but being the parent in charge of a large group is totally different.

I travel with 3 children to Europe. I can't imagine all that moving around trying to keep everyone organized, make sure each kid has their suitcase, backpack, etc. I am a totally OCD organizer too but travel is hectic and when you are dealing with other languages, cultural mores and such it can be tiring.

You haven't mentioned jet lag. You are arriving on an overnight flight, spending a night and then departing again. If your kids haven't experienced it you won't know their reaction. It takes me and my kids a few days to totally get over it. If you feel your kids can push through that is great but the reality could be completely different.

I think people on this board are being respectful and helpful. They don't want you to arrive and after the first couple of weeks of pushing through a very hectic itinerary have it all fall apart because the kids are tired and cranky, haven't had enough sleep and are not really experiencing Europe and all it has to offer.

Con't:

I urge you to consider 6 locations with an apartment in each. You will be able to immerse yourselves in that place. Take a couple of day trips to places that interest you. You can prepare breakfast and dinners at home saving money. I love shopping in the local supermarkets and at outdoor markets. It can be an experience in itself (just ask my niece who drank sour milk because I bought the wrong kind in France). You will be able to unpack, have a place to come to each evening to unwind. You will see plenty on your trip and give your children a wonderful experience that they can build upon with future trips.

Check out sites like www.homeaway.com and www.vrbo.com for apartment rentals.

Stacy, everyone IS trying to help,, on a "Helpline" so I suggest you readjust your attitude, many folks here have travelled alot, and I agree that we all have different travel styles and that no one way is the right way, but when people suggest you rethink your one night stops and you want to take that the wrong way instead of thinking " why do so many suggest I rethink that?" then you are being a bit of a "debbie downer" to those who really have no vested interest in doing anything but helping you.

Remember you titled this thread "Carefree" and we all know that doing one night stops ( especially with kids is not "carefree".

For children , not knowing their ages I can suggest a few things my kids liked.
My young teen boys both loved the Invalids Army Musuem in Paris and the Catacombs.

My three kids( two boys and 11 yr old daughter) all enjoyed the Eiffel Tower, and climbing the stairs of the Towers of Notre Dame.

In London we all enjoyed the Natural History Musuem( and its free, great tip for budgeting for a large family) .

pat,

childrens' ages were disclosed in post 28 in the previous thread, bit off more than I can chew.

Stacey said,

kids are going to be 17g, 13g, 11b& 10g next June

I was really hoping for ideas about people's favorite things to do or favorite places to stay. The post that goes something like, "while on the train to Venice we stopped in xyz village and had lunch at this little cafe. The owner was out of an old movie and it was the most memorable part of our trip." Or "My teenager just loved xyz in Germany, you just have to do it!"

I can tell you we had those experiences in places we stayed at least a full week without moving. Because that's when you have the opportunity to just wander around, stop here and there, with no concern for the next train. If you're somewhere to experience a completely new culture for 6 hours all you really do is walk the main street, gawk and be gone.

What my kids love most in Germany:
* sit in an Italian ice cafe and splurge on a huge bowl filled with gelato, fruit, loads of whipped cream and sauce
http://www.sanremo-coesfeld.de.tl/Eisbecher.htm
* go to one of the many public outdoor swimming pools and spend the entire afternoon there
* go to a soccer game with Bayern Muenchen
* try out a "Klettergarten", here's one close to Frankfurt:
http://www.kletterwald-taunus.de/

cont.

Similar our experience in Italy. Best events:
* spending a week in a rented villa (120 Euro/night for 6) not moving far away from the pool

* sitting on the patio of our B&B overlooking the Bay of Salerno reading our books

btw: our kids HATED the Cinque Terre as it was 98 F, no breeze, crowds everywhere. They didn't get to appreciate the fantastic views from the boat as they were fast asleep ... I actually happend to like the ONE hike we did, but it got seriously spoiled for me by my kids whining non-stop ... And no, this wasn't their first hike in their lives (we hike in the Rockies) nor their first trip to Europe. But this was the first time we did more of a RS style trip with an itinerary that had more moving around than what we'd usually do - and still quite a bit less than what you are currently planning.

Stacey,

Let me also suggest that you might have better luck if you create multiple posts with more specific questions. Try posting by location or topic. For example, you might post something like:

"Our family of 6 (kids age a, b, c, d) will be spending 3 nights in Granada. We're looking for accommodations for under x Euro per night. We also are looking for <specify type e.g. family-friendly, splurge, budget, etc.> restaurants, and activities that the kids would enjoy ... and so on." Also, be specific about some of your family's likes and dislikes (e.g. we like museums, or we like outdoor activities, or we like food markets, etc.)

Your question covers a large area and is very open-ended. I know that I was overwhelmed when I read it. While I've been to all the cities that you listed, I just didn't know where to start or what might be relevant to your family.

With 4 kids I would try not to move that much. I know the Cinque Terre and Venice both look tempting, but you have to pack, unpack, check in and check out 3x in just 5 days (Venice, Verona, Cinque Terre). That's very stressful. I would drop the Cinque Terre, which are out of the way anyway, and spend two nights in Verona. On the second day you could see Lake Garda, which isn't less beautiful than the Cinque Terre. The towns along the lake are very beautiful too. Sirmione on the southern shore for instance has a cool castle which your kids will like. Or take the ferry to Riva or Arco on the more spectacular northern side.
You could simplify your journey even more by staying in Padua, which is between Verona and Venice. The city itself is very interesting too, cheaper than Venice and Verona, and it's only a short train ride in both directions.

I think based on what you have described in your previous posts you might find this itinerary helpful:

fly to Germany 1 night
Fly to Venice 6 nights
-daytrip to Verona
-daytrip to Rovinj, Croatia for your husband (there is a ferry)
Train to Rome 7 nights
-daytrip to Pompeii
-daytrip to Florence
Fly to Granada 5 nights
-daytrip to Med for beach time (I actually don't know how feasible this is but it didn't look too far on a map)
Fly to Paris 7 nights
-daytrip Versailles
-daytrip D-day beaches (can be done but is long day)
Train to Amsterdam 7 nights
-daytrip Haarlem
-daytrip???
Train/fly to Germany Location 1 7 nights (possibilities include Bavaria you can even visit Salzburg from there, Munich, Berlin, Mosel/Rhine Valleys)
Train to Germany Location 2 7 nights

Daytrips are just suggestions based on travel time/how close and what my own kids liked/have expressed interest in.

Con't.

Sites:
Paris, your kids under 18 are free at pretty much all of the most famous museums, sites (things my kids enjoyed - Louvre, D'Orsay, Notre Dame, looking at all the beautiful stained glass at churches, wandering and finding the nearest Amorino, going out to pick up fresh croissant each morning)
Italy, kids are not free and there are usually no reduced cost admission tickets (we are planning Rome for 2014 and interests are ancient sites like Colosseum, Pantheon, Sistine Chapel, wandering back streets and hanging out in piazzas)
I haven't been to the other locations you want but finding our prices is easy once you know where you want to visit.

I think everyone's advice has been good and if you sit back and really think about the logistics and actually enjoying your trip you may want to make a few changes. It's not about how many hours you can pack into each day but about the time spent together as a family and the cultural enrichment you will all receive.