10 tickets from Florence in ONE DAY (worth E1000)
Hi, I have just received 10 tickets from Florence. Each one is for 95 Euro. For being in a restricted area. I have no recollection for breaking the rules so many times. And I really do not wish to end up parting with a huge chunk of money. The car was rented through an international network. What should I do? If this was one ticket, I would have paid for it, but 10 of them?????
andy
victoria, BC canada 3/4/09
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Oh, Andy. I am so sorry to hear that. Florence is notorious for that. Yes, that's one of the unexpected surprises of camera enforcement. The net is 100% effective (meaning getting caught is not random, it's guaranteed), but the frustrating part is the double jeopardy. Every time you pass a camera it catches you. A camera makes no distinction of whether or not you just got photographed one block back.
Visit this page for more info on traffic tickets in Florence:
http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic_violations_italy.htm
That's just a start. I don't know how you ask to reduce the fine from ten separate incidents to one.
PS This is a useful page, although I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion. The draconian traffic fines/enforcement are only used in cities where absolutely necessary to preserve the historic centers from congestion (hard to imagine it being worse) and the corrosive effects of traffic exhaust on buildings and art.
Linda, I cannot find that topic. Search yields no results. Can you provide a link, please?
Kent, well, I kind of educated myself about what I may have done wrong. The question is: realistically, what happens if I ignore this? Cause something tells me I may be receiving dozens more speeding tickets soon. I really am not prepared to part with thousands of dollars worth of fines unless it is absolutely inevitable.
Hi Andy, the search function is terrible. Here's a couple of threads with recent activity. Sadly, people didn't report back on how their tix were resolved. That's why I recommended you PM some people who posted on these threads. [edited. See Kent's email for the links]
More FAQ than you ever wanted to know about traffic tix from Italy: http://slowtalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/559601885/m/6461031724
By the way, the first website I gave you has some advice about how to resolve tickets, and consequences of ignoring them depending on your nationality.
Andy: Here are links to prior discussions, here, which include thoughts on what to do:
http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm?topic=8252
http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm?topic=11269
http://www.ricksteves.com/graffiti/helpline/index.cfm/rurl/topic/21078/uhoh--ticketed-in-arezzo.html
These 3 cover the thinking here, so far, on what you can do. We're still struggling to figure out what to do to help people who are facing this unusual situation.
I too have just received two tickets from my July visit to Florence! At first, not realizing whether this was a scam or not, I contacted the rental agency. Their canned response was that they cannot be of assistance. I also wrote to the Consulate in Florence but have not yet received a response.
We were just following the GPS directions (rented from the car agency) to get from Florence back to our villa in Inpruneta!
I haven't yet checked my contract to see whether the rental agency has the right to charge my credit card for all fines. I've been reading the various threads and am learning a great deal. Wish I had read them before we traveled there!
The thing to do is to not use a car in Firenze. Trains are a much, much better choice.
Such a terrible memory for you. I would contact Florence board of tourism as a start. Hopefully you can negotiate and pay one ticket and they would waive the others. If you did not pay any they would prob flag your passport and your next visit may be a prob to Italy. good luck
i hated the trip anyways. it was the biggest disappointment in my tourist experience, ever. i just don't want to end up paying these obscure fines.
Andy....the "out" may be proving that you were in a hotel in that area. If you can show that the cameras were in locations you were passing by to-from your hotel, you might be able to get rid of at least some of them. See Linda's first suggested website for more info. I believe there is a Florence will provide the info on where and when your photos were taken....you can cross-reference that with your hotel address at maps.google.ca and see what you come up with.
JS from W Ck, there is NO evidence to support a theory that non-payment means one's passport is flagged. I know you said "would probably" and I assume you are just guessing. But think about it in US terms...if you were an Italian tourist who received a parking ticket on your rental car in, say, San Francisco and didn't pay, do you think the SF PD would forward this information to the US State Department or whichever of the myriad of federal government offices concerns itself with such topics? Do you think the federal government cares whether or not tourists pay their local government tickets to the extent that they would set up a hugely expensive tracking network to "catch" those attempting to re-enter the country to go to Disneyland or Vegas?
I mean, IF the US government was interested in such a program, which they are not, they COULD pull it off. The Italians? Seriously. This would require the Polizia di Stato to have some kind of working relationship with the country's local police which is, to put it mildly, a bit of a stretch.
Sam? From Benicia? Aren't you the potty-mouthed dude sending those naughty PMs to those other nice people on this forum? If not, there's some other guy named "Sam from Benicia" that is totally trashing your good name.
In any case, I'm happy to answer all your questions. What do I suggest Andy should do? See next question. Should he just ignore the tickets and hope for the best? Yes. Are you making an assumption, or are you actually qualified to comment constructively to help the poor guy out? It's the latter, I have read everything available on the web on this subject, along with every post in this forum, and have come to the conclusion that North American residents need not fear repercussions from nonpayment. Andy will probably receive an additional letter after the first one, then they will give up. Of course, everyone has their own comfort level as it pertains to nonpayment of fines. I would always pay a parking ticket or traffic ticket of any kind here in the US should I receive one because there is no escape. But these Italian ZTL tickets? Nah.
(Edit 3/31/09: Evidently "Sam from Benicia"'s post has been removed, perhaps all his posts on this forum have been removed because he was a naughty provocateur of the troll persuasion. Accordingly, my post here has confusing context. We now return to your regular programming...)
So Neil....we ignore laws when we think we can get away with it?
No doubt, there are many laws that are only being observed out of fear of negative consequences. Paying outrageous taxes is one good example. Paying unreasonable traffic fines is another.
I understand that many laws DO make sense and help make our lives better and easier. But to say that ALL laws are presumptively reasonable is - to the very least - irresponsible. When the government is feeding me with unreasonable rules, the only thing that makes me obey are the consequences for not following them.
I don't necessarily think that EVERYTHING that the government does is good for me or is a smart thing to do.
Andy...two points to make. Firstly, the Italians don't think the fines are unreasonable....and while in Italy, you are governed by their laws....not our laws and not your own personal beliefs. Secondly, if you can't motivate a majority of people to agree with you that a particular law is unsound or unfair, then the law stands....that's a democracy, and you live with the results. You don't get to pick and choose which laws you'll obey, and which ones you won't.
Andy, I agree.
Norm, to answer your question: "laws"...no. "Bad laws"...yes.
I can state with conviction that all laws are not intrinsically just. The overwhelming majority are. But sometimes The Man stubs his toe.
Of course it deserves to be mentioned lest someone accuse me of improper thinking that the country in which I was born and raised was created because some folks were sick and tired of The Man's stupid laws. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go don my "These Colors Don't Run" t-shirt. :}
Actually, Neil, the country in which you were born and raised was created because the people didn't have a say in the laws that governed them. Once they did succeed in winning independence, the laws passed came from representatives of the people they elected...and continue to elect today. It's a democracy now, Neil...and you live with the results.
"I can state with conviction that all laws are not intrinsically just."
I think almost everyone is going to agree that not all laws are just (an obvious example being the state laws that used to mandate racial segregation)--but has Norm made the argument that all laws are just, or based his argument on the truth of that proposition? I don't know, he can tell us, I'm just asking. I quickly skimmed some of his posts and I'm not aware he has based his position on the truth of the proposition that all laws are just. If he has made that argument, then that argument can be rebutted or refuted; but if he has not, then this is refuting an argument that hasn't been made.
after re-reading his post, I still think that he implied that laws are observed for some other reason than plain fear of negative consequences. I think he implied that this other reason is the belief in efficiency, reasonableness and fairness of these laws.
Kent, I was responding to what I felt was the point Norm was promoting which was that we don't get to pick and choose which laws we must obey. This is spillover from the same topic in the "To the Boot" thread. I won't argue that Norm states all laws are just. I'm assuming he knows of laws that are unjust but he chooses to obey them anyway and would recommend others do likewise. I got no beef with this. There are lots of fine people who think this way. If I've mischaracterized Norm's view on this, I'm sure he'll point out my error.
I would submit that the "founding fathers" rebuttal is shaky, because it implies that all you have to do to change bad laws is vote out the people who make them. If only it were that easy. Because it's not, people fight back when they can, in subtle ways.
If the Italian authorities were serious about collecting this money, they'd pick up the pace a little and get these collection letters out sooner than the 8 months or so it's taking. And they'd get real collection agencies on the case. With this lazy approach they get what they seem to be happy with...payment by some.
With the reputation Italy has for intractable bureaucracy, I assume it's even harder for their citizens to get bad laws changed than here in the US.
Not paying fines to a faceless government agency when we can get away with it is a pretty basic human trait. A lot of folks may not admit to it publicly because they think they might be accused of some kind of moral slackitude. I am not conflicted in this regard. It's reality. In the specific case, Florentine children are not going to bed hungry at night because some people don't pay their traffic fines.
Neil...surely you jest! "it implies that all you have to do to change bad laws is vote out the people who make them. If only it were that easy." That's exactly what it means! That's the basic rule of democracy! Every couple of years, you get a chance to exercise that right! Why is it not that easy? I've seen massive changes in the way the United States organizes its society over the past half century, mainly by people who organized themselves to vote out those who were passing bad laws, and voting in those who would do a better job. It might not be perfect, but it's better than anything else out there. I get the feeling your cynicism in this regard is either a feeling of powerlessness, or simply an excuse to sit back and complain without accepting the challenge to try to change things.
andy,
Sorry to hear about the ZTL tickets and also that you found your travels in Italy a "disappointment". The ZTL fines are one reason I prefer to use public transport most of the time, except for "strategic rentals" to see specific sites. Unfortunately there seems to be a growing list of cities in Italy that are using these, and I'm sure the "fiscal benefits" have been well noticed.
I somehow doubt that Italian authorities will establish ties with their counterparts here to enforce collection. However, depending on how serious they are about collections, it would be very easy for them to "flag" Passport or D.L. information and detain those that return to their jurisdiction. Hard to say whether that will happen or not?
Judy You might it interesting to read some of the discussions at ec.europa.eu/consumers/redress/ecc_network/car_rental_report2005.pdf, especially Section 8 (d) towards the end which states "You will pay the following charges - (d) All fines and court costs for parking, traffic or other offences (including any costs which arise if the vehicle is clamped). You must pay the appropriate authority any fines and costs if and when the authority demands this payment. If you do not, you will be responsible to pay our reasonable administration charges which arise when we deal with these matters.
While these contracts may differ between countries, there seems to be some intent to synchronize these throughout the E.U. Virtually ALL of the rental contracts I've used over the last 40 years or so have stated that the renter agrees to pay all fines or traffic charges. By signing the contract, the renter is agreeing to this clause.
There doesn't seem to be any clear answers yet regarding what penalties may result for those who ignore the ZTL fines, but I suspect that authorities will eventually become more aggressive with regards to "revenue recovery".
Cheers!
I don't mean to be harsh or critical of anyone who has made a human mistake when I assert that people who say "..these fines are unreasonable" are--as Rick would say-- "trying to find America in Europe."
I remember in the early 70's I first heard the Coliseum in Rome was showing signs of deterioration from the corrosive effects of auto emissions. I thought it was a tragedy. Of course Florence's irreplacable art, monuments of history, and crowded historic center must be equally affected so extraordinary measures to control traffic are not all unreasonable. It's Italy-not Peoria.
I must say that I am truly astonished that nearly 40 years later anyone would think they should rent a car and try to drive in Florence! Holy Cow. I really don't understand. Really. I don't.
Even more astonishingly, the only concern that I read about is "whether or not I have to pay the ticket." Doesn't anyone else think it is very, very important not to drive in Florence, whether you can get away with it or not. No one?
I feel terrible for Andy, he made a mistake. Goodness sakes, I've made worse mistakes in life and I have not had to pay so dearly. (And I thank all you nice people in advance for not making me disclose what they are :> ) But, I have to say I am astonished that people think that it is reasonable to bring American attitudes about driving (always) and public transportatin (for other people to use-not me) to Florence.
Even so, it's also very reasonable for people to ask for leniency when they make mistakes, but it's kind of hard for Andy to ask for an appeal for 9 out of 10 Italian tickets from North America. It's not unfair for him to explore his options and the consequences of not paying--he's in a bad place. I have empathy. I wish you luck Andy.
A lot of good stuff here.
Ken, I'm not sure what the "administrative charges" are in the phrase you referenced, but if this was meant to say in plain English that the car rental agency would pay your fines if you refuse to, I would think this would happen promptly if the first letter gets no response. If anybody has an alternative viewpoint I'm glad to hear it, but it seems pretty obvious that this would be the case. I assume that most car rental agreements call for renters to take care of their own fines and won't charge their credit cards and turn these funds over to the authorities or this whole topic wouldn't even be discussed.
Norm, I envy your political system up there in the Great White North. Just vote them out, you say? That's some intoxicating altruism you got going there. Maybe you haven't been reading much news of goings-on down south of you in the last, say, 50 years, but we have some, um, shortcomings in the political integrity department. Oops, I fear my cynicism is showing again.
Now, I will say this...a forewarned and forearmed driver can map a route to the parking garage at the train station in Florence. In and out without a ZTL fine. There's no need for this "it's just CRAZY to drive in Florence" nonsense. People should not drive in Florence if they're not willing to do the work to plan their route in advance. Many if not all of the people complaining about ZTL tickets didn't know the extent to which these zones are a nearly complete dragnet around the city center. But now they know, or should.
The question proposed is this: should Andy pay $1,350 (give or take) in ZTL fines if the penalty for not paying is no penalty at all? If your answer is "yes" then I invite you to ask a thousand strangers, "Would you pay $1,350 in traffic fines if nothing happened to you if you didn't pay?" It's pretty simple, really. I'm just talking about reality here, not a moralistic construct that resides in the brain.
Should Andy fight those tickets? Yes he should. Should he even get down on bended knee and plead for a break? Yes he should. But, in the end, should he pay them? Yes. Once again, Neil, you try to divorce "reality" from "a moralistic construct that resides in the brain." But that's impossible. The laws of ANY country are based on that moralistic construct....how else are they formed?
As for American politics, I seem to remember that the Republicans were tossed out in the 1976 presidential elections because of the "moralistic construct" of the Nixon-Ford administration.....the Democrats suffered defeat in 2000 in part because of the "moralistic construct" of President Clinton...and I seem to remember a pretty overwhelming vote last November when the people passed judgment on the Bush administration's "moralistic construct."
P.S. I love Wales!
Norm, I suppose the answer to Andy's question depends on the context. He states, "What should I do?" which can be interpreted in a couple of ways, the first being, "Is this a legitimate practice or some kind of scam?" and the second being, "What happens if I don't pay 'cause I'd rather not part with a huge chunk of money." Since Andy has made reference to these "obscure fines" and has expressed the money as the driving topic, I assume it's the latter question he was asking. So my answer is "don't pay it" if it's simply a matter of finances. Andy's already pushed aside the moral issue, it's not relevant anymore. In fact, even one who thinks the fines SHOULD be paid because it's the "right" thing to do cannot argue with facts on his side that there would be problems if one doesn't pay. So you see, your appeals to moral uprightness are admirable but unfortunately are not pertinent to the question. Andy states he knows what he did wrong, this is different than others in the past who have asked a similar question who are simply trying to ensure this is not a scam before they pay. I was just trying to help Andy figure out what would happen if he doesn't pay this stack of fines, I'm pretty sure a primer on right vs. wrong is not useful information to him.
I submit that there are innumerable reasons for the creation of laws not based on "moralistic construct." Mainly, because of money and powerful special interest groups who create or maintain them. For example, we like to get lots of handguns into the hands of the populace down here in order to enjoy a lot of handgun violence. Many if not most people here think this is not a good thing. Not moral, even. But there's no chance at all any kind of real handgun control will happen. Not even close.
And I've never been to Wales, but I'm told it's a very nice country if not the best in the world.
Neil....it's very simple....if "most" opposed handguns vociferously enough, the law would change. Our gun laws have become progressively tighter over the years for that very reason. And as for assuming Andy doesn't want to pay, consider his initial question where he asks what should he do. You may also consider this as an appeal for help to see if he can reduce the fines. As Andy said at the conclusion to his initial question, "If this was one ticket, I would have paid for it, but 10 of them?????"
To spare the discussion as to potential interpretations of why I was asking the question, Neil was right.
Moral side of the story is the LAST thing on my mind.
The one ticket that I would have paid, I would pay it not because I feel bad about the city of Florence taking too much of a damage from drivers, but because of the practical reasons. Simple fear - value analysis. If only 100E was at stake, I would have preferred peace of mind and paid it. Since it is more, I am willing to take a chance. What I needed to know is the extent of the risk.
Also, my trip to Italy convinced me that Italians do not really care about any of their legacy. They live like there is no tomorrow.
What killed me was Vatican museums (I know it is technically a separate state) where priceless works are placed in galleries with open windows (in the summer) and have powerful lamps directed right at them.
They are happy as long as people are willing to pay to see their ruins.
When they are gone, they will come up with something else.
If they REALLY wanted drivers out of streets of Florence, all they had to do was to set up pass-controlled swing gates.
Answering your implied question, yes, I think that the mere street signs are not sufficient, and the amount of tickets they give out only proves it.
So, yeah, the question was only about the extent of the risk of ignoring the tickets, because, Norm, you can't be serious about appealing those tickets, from Canada, in Italian, with the only claim being unreasonableness of the procedure, do you?
Andy...sorry to hear that you believe the only laws that should apply to you are the ones you like. And sorry to hear you unfairly, and unjustly, slag the people of Florence and Italy based upon your experiences with the ZTLs in Florence. As for appealing the tickets.....have you even tried? I guess you don't need to though, since you're determined you won't pay them in the first place.
Norm. Please don't read into my words something I never said...
I do not slag the people of Italy based upon my experience with ZTLs in Florence. I hated the trip even before I knew ZTLs even existed. I learned about ZTLs several months after I came back from Italy. Tickets did not change my feelings towards the trip. They were more like: "Oh, the trip sucked, now they will want me to double its cost?" (something tells me Florence tickets may not be the only tickets I will be receiving, as I stated in my first post).
As for appealing the tickets. This site, as well as all the others, recommend this: if you leave an option for yourself not to pay the fines, do not contact the authorities. I will not be able to prove I was going to/from my hotel. Ignorance is said to not be a valid excuse. Unreasonableness of fines is not one either. So, what do you think I should do? Hire an Italian lawyer to fight those tickets? Fly to Italy with an interpreter? I mean we Canadians can be naive and all too righteous, but you really cannot be serious with all of this preaching. Or are you?
And yes, I am determined not to pay the tickets, unless I hear from someone who has had a first-hand experience in how non-payment resulted in some burdensome consequences.
The reason I joined this site was to seek someone with this first-hand experience. So far no one has had it. So I will be cautiously watching the developments...
And thanks to everyone who posts in this thread (including you, Norm).
PS And yes, if I feel a law is patently unfair to me or is unreasonable, and I can get away with not being bound by it, I will. Behaving otherwise is flock-like. I don't have to eat everything the government treats me with. This is called freedom and individual responsibility. By the way, it is an implied human right to disobey unreasonable or oppressive laws. Tomorrow the government will pass the bill that for the purpose of fostering diversity, your first-born must be given out to a family of another race. Are you going to line up with your baby simply because "it's the law?". Anyway, I feel that this is getting me too far off-topic, but it is just that sometimes this holier-than-thou attitude really stupefies me.
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